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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:30 pm 
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The book is now available in paperback and it includes two chapters by Acharya S/Murdock:

Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist? [Paperback] by authors Acharya S/D.M. Murdock, Robert M. Price Ph.D. (Editor), Frank R. Zindler (Editor), Earl Doherty, Richard Carrier Ph.D., René Salm and David Fitzgerald

Price: $31.95

Quote:
Book Description:

"When New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman published Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, he not only attempted to prove the historical reality of a man called “Jesus of Nazareth,” he sharply criticized scholars who have sought to develop a new paradigm in the study of Christian origins—scholars who have claimed that Jesus was a mythical, not historical, figure, and that the traditional, Jesus-centered paradigm for studying the origins of Christianity must be replaced by an actual science of Christian origins. In the present volume, some of those scholars respond to Ehrman’s treatment of their research and findings, showing how he has either ignored, misunderstood or misrepresented their arguments. They present evidence that “Jesus of Nazareth” was no more historical than Osiris or Thor. Several contributors question not only the historicity of “Jesus of Nazareth,” they present evidence that the site of present-day Nazareth was not inhabited at the time Jesus and his family should have been living there."

Product Details:

Paperback: 608 pages
Publisher: American Atheist Press; First Edition edition (April 16, 2013)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1578840198
ISBN-13: 978-1578840199

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* Please don't forget to put in a request at your local library too.

Previous thread on: Bart Ehrman's Book 'Did Jesus Exist?'

FAQ: Over 80 Rebuttals to Bart Ehrman's Anti-Mythicist Book 'Did Jesus Exist?'

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win

- Attributed to Gandhi

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Well, first of all, congratulations to our forum moderator, GodAlmighty, for making it into the book on page 22 cited by Richard Carrier in response to the posters on Bart Ehrmans blog. 8)

I'll post more on the book later.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Cool. I did see that he linked here on his blog back when he wrote it. It is interesting to see Acharya & Carrier "on the same side" here. Let's see if things can stay that way.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:52 pm 
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Okay, so far I've read the Foreword and Preface by Dr. Frank Zindler and then the Introduction by Dr. Robert Price, I'd say it was the perfect set-up for the rest of the book. One could be brought 'up to speed' by those first few pages on the details of this debate and its ramifications on the historical Jesus and the case for mythicism. There's actually a lot at stake here and the gauntlet has been dropped in this book, for this debate has been centuries in the making and it's finally beginning to see the light of day for all to see.

If Dr. Bart Ehrman thought his book, 'Did Jesis Exist?' was going to put an end to the case for mythicism, his book is having the exact opposite affect from what he anticipated i.e. Over 80 Rebuttals to Bart Ehrman's Anti-Mythicist Book 'Did Jesus Exist?'. He has instead brought it front and center. I predict that this new book will eventually cause a shake-up throughout academia and force it to include mythicist material in the class room, which is very badly needed in my opinion.

The first chapter is by Dr. Robert Price entitled "Bart Ehrman: Paradigm Policeman" where he lays waste to Ehrman and his tactics and that of the SBL (Society of Biblical Literature) and academia in general and Price addresses some of Ehrman's misrepresentations of his work, of course.

The 2nd chapter is by Richard Carrier who just rakes Ehrman over the coals for many pages over his egregious phallic statue errors in a chapter appropriately entitled, "How not to defend historicity," and Carrier gives him no breaks for many more pages on other errors and sloppiness as well, basically pointing out how Ehrman has ruined his own reliability and credibility.

Then comes Acharya's chapter 3, "The phallic 'Savior of the World' hidden in the Vatican," which exposes Bart Ehrman as most likely never having read Acharya's book for himself, which might explain such sloppy and egregious errors in his criticisms of it. None of that is any surprise to us around here - Bart Ehrman's Book 'Did Jesus Exist?'

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Acharya's blog about the book: New book about Bart Ehrman and the Christ myth!:

Here are a couple quotes I was going to post previously but didn't have time - thankfully, Acharya typed them out.

In the Foreword by Frank Zindler, page xi, he says :

Quote:
"The struggle here engaged is not just another scholarly quarrel. It is a contest between scholars who see the world through the lens of science and those who cannot yet cut themselves free from the anchors of religious and traditional authority. Until the publication in 2012 of Bart D. Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, scholars who have denied the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth have for the most part been answered only by religious apologists, not genuine historians or biblical scholars. Only occasionally during the twentieth century did secular scholars take critical notice of the growing Mythicist literature and present arguments against even the most uncertain and vulnerable parts of it. For the most part, the strategy of traditional scholars seems to have been, "If we ignore them, sooner or later they'll give up and go away."

That strategy worked very well, and notice of the so-called Mythicist position were taken neither in Academe nor in pulpit. Until the advent of the internet, Mythicist evidence and arguments against the Historical Jesus was largely excluded from the ordinary channels of scholarly communications.

Everything changed, however, when the Mythicist position was formally engaged by Professor Bart. D. Ehrman, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Ehrman arguably is one of the most famous and professional respected New Testament scholars in America. In his Did Jesus Exist?, specific Mythicists are named and their works are cited and criticized. This is a milestone in the history of Historical-Jesus studies, and it lends hope that before too long a genuine Science of Christian Origins will be able to supplant Historical-Jesus Studies in the world of secular scholarship.

The present book provides an opportunity for Mythicists to reply to Professor Ehrman's criticisms in Did Jesus Exist?..."

From the Introduction by Dr. Robert Price on page xxi:

Quote:
"Acharya S (pen name of D.M. Murdock) is one of the prime targets for Professor Ehrman's haughty derision. Her chief sin in Ehrman's eyes would appear to be her lack of diplomas on the wall, notwithstanding Acharya's extensive researches, including on-site investigations of archaeological materials, and her extensive documentation of her theories. She dares to plumb neglected and forgotten works by old writers, separating the wheat from the chaff where these old authors lacked the (more recent) knowledge that would have enabled them to tell the difference. Like a scribe who produces from her treasury goods old and new (Matt. 13:52), she has a knack for displaying intriguing data neglected by "mainstream" scholars who simply do not know what to make of them. Such items of evidence are rejected or ignored by scholars who have long since assembled the jigsaw in a particular way and find that these oddly shaped bits cannot be conveniently inserted. Acharya dissents: she sees the need to start over and to redo the puzzle. One such puzzle piece is the bizarre artifact inscribed with the caption "Savior of the World," a bust of a rooster-headed man whose beak is replaced by an erect penis! Was this thing an improbable caricature of Jesus Christ? An artist's conception of the fabled Antichrist? An idol of the god Priapus? Any way you cut it, the ancient world was full of oddities that imply a stranger, more complex picture than many would like to think. Well, Bart Ehrman not only knows not what to make of the dickhead deity (we could forgive him for that); he just wishes it away, declaring it a figment of Acharya's fevered imagination. Such libel only reveals a total disinclination to do a fraction of the research manifest on any singe page of Acharya's works. In fact, one inevitably thinks of Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods? In it he declares, "Without actually consulting Exodus, I seem to remember that the Ark was often surrounded by flashing sparks." Here Acharya obligingly does what she shouldn't have to do, providing (again!) the documentation for her account of "The Phallic Savior of the World in the Vatican Museum." Are Acharya's hypotheses and speculations debatable? That is no surprise when one ventures, and one suspects that is what Ehrman, safely ensconced in the cocoon of mainstream scholarship, really cannot brook."

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:34 pm 
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^Tell her hell yeah we want to see those 60 pages of pwnage!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 pm 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
^Tell her hell yeah we want to see those 60 pages of pwnage!

LOL! :shock:

Well, I'm working hard on the Moses book, with too many pages of draft research coming out of my eyeballs, but I'll see what I can do and will take your request as inspiration. :wink:

I definitely need muses, because it feels at times like nobody's getting it or is interested - Justin Bieber/Timberlake and Lady Gaga constantly beckon, of course.

I suppose I can do what Doherty did and make an ebook out of it, for sale.

Oh, and did you like this part?

Quote:
I find it somewhat amusing that it has been left to me, the sole female in this tome as well as prominently in the field of mythicism in general, to explore the subject of the priapus gallinaceus, the "dickhead deity," as Bob Price has so eloquently put it. Perhaps in erecting this issue, Erhman felt I would be intimidated by the display of manhood. Needless to say, I am not, and it is my pleasure to wave my own prowess around in return.

:twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:55 pm 
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I'm not done reading the book yet, just finished Chapter 8. In the latter part of this chapter, Frank R. Zindler lists languages necessary for the scientific study of the origins of Christianity, but apparently omits ancient Egyptian. Does anybody know the reason for it? Am I missing something?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:15 am 
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Perhaps just an oversight.

MightyAgrippa wrote:
I'm not done reading the book yet, just finished Chapter 8. In the latter part of this chapter, Frank R. Zindler lists languages necessary for the scientific study of the origins of Christianity, but apparently omits ancient Egyptian. Does anybody know the reason for it? Am I missing something?

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:19 am 
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I'm just going to re-post some of the criticisms of the book here in this thread just to make sure it's all referenced here. Here are the very odd harsh criticisms from Richard Carrier and Rook Hawkins/Tom Vern:

Code:
Zindler-Price Anthology: Contra Ehrman
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/3522

Book Review: Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth by Tom Verenna
http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/book-review-bart-ehrman-and-the-quest-of-the-historical-jesus-of-nazareth/

Here are some responses to that criticism:

Richard Carrier’s Review of BEQHJ
http://vridar.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/richard-carriers-review-of-bart-ehrman-and-the-quest-of-the-historical-jesus/

Neil Godfrey's critique of Rook Hawkins/Tom Vern's review of the Ehrman response book
https://vridar.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/book-review-bart-ehrman-and-the-quest-of-the-historical-jesus-of-nazareth-reviewing-the-review/

I've already posted these here:

My response to Rook
viewtopic.php?p=27822#p27822

On Carrier
viewtopic.php?p=27859#p27859

Here's a comment from Godfrey's blog by Evan in response to the criticism of Zindlers' publishing the e-mail exchange between himself and Ehrman:

Quote:
"Ehrman’s published emails to Zindler as I find them in the book:

Email 1 (August 12, 2009): He thanks him for an email and for sending info. Tells him he is too busy to respond. Says he’s a “strong agnostic.”

Email 2 (October 14, 2010): States the argument from consensus and that the existence of Jesus is beyond a reasonable doubt, then denies doing radio shows for the year prior.

Email 3 (October 14, 2010): Denies using argument from authority and states there is good evidence for Jesus, then questions Zindler’s credentials.

Email 4 (October 22, 2010 … ironically, the date of the “great disappointment”): Challenges Zindler’s contention that confessional bias leads to overestimation of historicity, then states that Zindler is wrong for thinking Christianity started as a mystery religion by asserting he lacks foundational knowledge.

Email 5 (June 22, 2011): States pub date for Apocryphal gospels textbook.

Email 6 (June 22, 2011): Discusses decision not to use Nag Hammadi texts for that book.

Email 7 (July 15, 2011): “Interesting argument. Thanks for passing it along”

Email 8 (July 15, 2011): Asks for biographical details of Zindler’s.

Email 9 (July 16, 2011): “Thanks. Scary!”

Email 10 (July 22, 2011): Asks if Zindler is publisher at AAP.

Email 11 (August 5, 2011): Asks Zindler for evidence backing up some of his claims regarding Mithra.

At no point did Ehrman ever engage any of Zindler’s arguments in any of the emails.

At no point did Ehrman attempt to argue the case he makes in DJE? in any of the emails.

Some of them are quite clearly dismissive. I don’t know Frank Zindler at all, but he puts far more effort into almost any of his emails attempting to establish his points to Ehrman than the amount of effort Ehrman put into the entire correspondence.

So there is nothing in Ehrman’s emails to scrutinize.

The purpose of the chapter, in my opinion, from having read it, is for Zindler to show how hard he worked to document his claims to Ehrman and how Ehrman never really engaged him or debated him.

Since this is undoubtedly one of the claims of the book as a whole, to me the chapter works quite well to establish Ehrman’s work ethic for this task and was useful. It in no way reveals any personally or professionally embarrassing details about Ehrman.

- Comment by Evan

A comment by Godfrey's in response to the Zindler/Ehrman e-mail exchange:

Quote:
"...I see the emails as evidence of the problem that has faced “mythicism” for decades now. Though the scholarly guild claims to have debunked the arguments we can see clearly that they are not interested in engaging with them...."

Here's Rene Salm's response to Carrier's critique: Just a Head’s Up: The Salm-Carrier exchange (May 1-2, 2013)

As I stated previously in the The Nazareth / Bethlehem Debate thread:

Quote:
"...Keep in mind that the entire point behind addressing the Nazareth issue in this book was due to Bart Ehrman's book, remember what the title was? Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, that's right, don't forget the 'Jesus of NAZARETH' bit. Here are all the mentions of Nazareth from Ehrman's book at Google books. Obviously, the BEQHJ book was a response to that. It's as if neither Carrier nor Tom Vern ever understood that very basic factoid. It's hilarious that these two guys always attempt to set themselves up as the 'goto guys' when obviously they are not. They certainly are, 'legends in their own minds.' :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio host Miguel Conner with special guest Frank Zindler discussing the new book response to Bart Ehrman

The Case Against Bart Ehrman's Historical Jesus: Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Quote:
The purpose of the chapter, in my opinion, from having read it, is for Zindler to show how hard he worked to document his claims to Ehrman and how Ehrman never really engaged him or debated him.

Since this is undoubtedly one of the claims of the book as a whole, to me the chapter works quite well to establish Ehrman’s work ethic for this task and was useful. It in no way reveals any personally or professionally embarrassing details about Ehrman.

I saw this email exchange before it was published, via Zindler. He assured me that Erhman had given him permission to publish this exchange. I noted the exchange demonstrated that Zindler knew far more about Jesus mythicism than did Ehrman and that Ehrman didn't want to learn anything else. The fact that he completely ignored Zindler's thoughtful comments is reflected in his book, which reeks of such ignorance.

Thus, the email exchange was extremely useful in demonstrating that Ehrman did not know what he was talking about, had not studied the subject and was unqualified to be writing a book about Jesus mythicism. In this regard, it is highly embarrassing to Ehrman.

Complainers such as the low-class and sleazy individual who will not be named are not only visionless hacks but also are apparently afraid of the publication of emails because of their own misbehaviors behind the scenes. This dishonest individual in particular has such low morals that he is the last person to be complaining about someone else's ethics. His views on this subject and all others can be ignored.

In any event, the Ehrman-Zindler exchange is highly useful in that it demonstrates Ehrman is not an expert on Jesus mythicism and should not have written a book about it. I am told that many of Ehrman's supporters have lost a great deal of respect for him. It seems that few other than Christian fanatics are giving his book thumbs up, which is ironic, since Ehrman does well otherwise to disprove Christian claims. Do these thumbs-up fanatics agree with him that many Christian texts are forgeries? That Christ is a composite, even though he tries desperately to find a "real guy" underneath all the mythological and midrashic layers?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:13 pm 
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^ I'm reminded of Dr. Errorman's new book description:

Code:
"Arguably the most distinctive feature of the early Christian literature," writes Bart Ehrman, "is the degree to which it was forged." The Homilies and Recognitions of Clement; Paul's letters to and from Seneca; Gospels by Peter, Thomas, and Philip; Jesus' correspondence with Abgar, letters by Peter and Paul in the New Testament--all forgeries"

- Dr. Bart Ehrman, 'Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics'

http://www.amazon.com/Forgery-Counterforgery-Literary-Christian-Polemics/dp/0199928037

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Review: Jockeying for Jesus by Ed Suominen

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Quote:
"...Virtually all of the ‘Authorities’ who have pronounced upon the historicity of Jesus are handicapped and compromised by their employment by church-related institutions. Certainly, even an Atheist in the employ of a religious university or seminary would not dare to express mythicist theories. Almost all authorities were themselves educated at sectarian schools and were never exposed to the abundant mythicist literature that has appeared since the 1790’s.20 Virtually all secular historians are not themselves authorities on Jesus of Nazareth, taking the word of religious authorities simply because they have never had any reason to do otherwise. They never had reason to do otherwise because of the effective suppression of mythicist writings."

Footnote 20: "It is surely significant that Ehrman makes no effort to counter my claims here at any point in DJE? but rather repeatedly chides Mythicists for not being properly educated and repeatedly citing the conclusions of the 'authorities' here discussed! Because he makes no attempt to deal with this argument, the appeals to authority and ad hominem attacks of that book are more glaringly apparent than would be the case if he had tried fairly to deal with my argument here."

- Frank Zindler, 'Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth,' page 90

Quote:
"... none of the information I would eventually supply to him would find a place in DJE?"

- Frank Zindler, 120

Quote:
Footnote 37: "I fear that all this information pertaining to astronomy and astrology must have generated far too great cognitive dissonance for Ehrman even to understand my arguments let alone treat them fairly in DJE?"

- Frank Zindler, 133

* I recommend reading the entire chapter of e-mail exchanges between Dr. Frank Zindler and Dr. Bart Ehrman in chapter 4 'Cognitive Dissonance' pages 73-147

The intellectual dishonesty from Ehrman in DJE? is blatantly obvious. Bart Ehrman had utterly no intention of ever writing any sort of an honest and objective book in DJE at all. Ehrman's agenda was simply an anti-mythicist drive-by smear. What a low-life piece of shit. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bart Ehrman ruined his own credibility with DJE?

See also, Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History - a must read

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