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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:13 pm 
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I figured now was a good time to start this thread on the forthcoming book entitled, On the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier (due out in Feb. & yes, Dick is short for Richard) since he's come out with a couple articles promoting it at the Catholic website "Strange Notions." Carrier explains at his blog:

Code:
"The Catholic website Strange Notions asked me to write two brief articles on why questioning the historicity of Jesus is more plausible than commonly assumed."

Strange Notions: Questioning the Historicity of Jesus
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4573

I'll provide a few quotes from the article below from 'Strange Notions'

Code:
Defending Mythicism: A New Approach to Christian Origins
http://www.strangenotions.com/defending-mythicism/

Dick Carrier wrote:
"There is some evidence of mythicist sects that slipped through medieval church censors and selectors. The New Testament itself mentions a rival sect teaching that the Gospels were fabricated myths (2 Peter 1:16-2:2, commonly agreed to be a forged letter most likely originating in the second century). And manuscript evidence suggests that the second century apocryphal text The Ascension of Isaiah originally depicted Jesus being killed by Satan and his demons in the lower heavens (and not on earth), exactly as the mythicist thesis proposes. Even some of the “other sects” discussed by later authors like Irenaeus appear to have imagined Jesus was born in the heavens, not on earth, and regarded stories about him to be allegories, not biographies.

"But we don’t expect more than hints to survive. Because the sect that gained power in the fourth century and decided what documents to preserve or quote and which to discard or leave in silence had no reason to preserve anything that challenged their version of Christian origins. We thus see that east of the Roman Empire, a sect of Christians beyond their reach still believed Jesus was killed around 80-70 B.C. (under the reign of king Jannaeus) and not under Roman rule a century later. This sect was in fact the original Torah observant sect, still called the Nazorians (as I explained in Part I, one of the original names for the Christian movement). But we only know about this because Epiphanius chanced once to mention it, and this was the only sect the authors of the Babylonian Talmud knew. We otherwise have not a single surviving document from or about them.

So arguments from silence cannot prevail against mythicism. We have no reason to expect any such evidence to survive, and yet still even have some hints in the evidence that did survive."

===

Quotes from the other article at 'Strange Notions':

Code:
Questioning the Historicity of Jesus
http://www.strangenotions.com/questioning-the-historicity-of-jesus/

Dick Carrier wrote:
"The most credible alternative theory of Christian origins is that Jesus began life as a celestial being, known only through private revelations, who was believed to have been crucified and resurrected in the lower heavens. The Gospels were the first attempts to place him in history as an earthly man, in parables and fables meant to illustrate Christian theology and ideals."

Dick Carrier wrote:
"In the 1970s, the view that Moses and other Old Testament patriarchs were mythical was considered scandalous, but now is largely mainstream. It is now pretty much the standard view in secular academia, and even has begrudging support from many devout Jewish and Christian scholars. The same hypothesis for Jesus is now where that hypothesis was in the 1970s. Within forty years, the same outcome may prevail."

Dick Carrier wrote:
"Josephus probably never mentioned Christ or Christianity in any respect at all. I present the evidence and scholarship establishing that point in volume 20 of the Journal of Early Christian Studies."

Dick Carrier wrote:
"Jesus was probably not originally a Nazarene (Greek nazarênos), but a Nazorian (Greek nazôraios), based on a now-lost scripture (Matthew 2:23). This was actually one of the original names for the Christian movement (Acts 24:5) and remained the name of the original Torah-observant Christian sect (Epihanius, Panarion 9). It clearly did not mean “from Nazareth” (Christians did not hail from there, and the words do not share the same roots). Scholars speculate on what “nazorian” may have meant (Proving History, pp. 142-45). But its attachment to the town of Nazareth appears to have been an invention of the Gospel authors. At the very least, we have no evidence otherwise."

I'll be honest here: That last quote kinda pisses me off, because in the book response to Bart Ehrman's 'Did Jesus Exist?' a collaborative mythicist book rebuttal entitled, Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist? by authors Acharya S/Murdock, Robert Price, Frank Zindler, Earl Doherty, Richard Carrier and more, Acharya has a couple chapters in that book and one is on Nazareth, which Richard Carrier called "hopelessly flawed". Dick Carrier never explained even one flaw in her article but, here he is utilizing her argument. Carrier has a 10-year history of smearing and "poisoning the well" with Acharya and her work. It just seems like when Acharya says these things Carrier comes unglued and feels the need to criticize it but, it's perfectly fine when Carrier says the same damn thing. Plus, the fact that Carrier cites himself, which he has also reamed Acharya for.

My comment on that issue stands:

Quote:
I cannot agree with Carrier claiming Acharya's chapter on Nazareth (pages 389-404) is "hopelessly flawed" - that's just another over-the-top, absurd insult that we've come to expect from Carrier. Dick Carrier doesn't explain a single error to show why it's "hopelessly flawed" at all. Having read the chapter, I thought her points on the Samson parallel of a "Nazarite/Nazarene" as well as a specific religious sect (pages 401-4) and the blatantly obvious solar mythology that went with it was quite powerful, rendering the concept of a town or city of Nazareth for Jesus to be from, completely obsolete, which is pretty much what Carrier himself was saying about Nazareth. So, what's the point for her to mention the so-called evidence that Carrier himself claims is irrelevant anyway? See, Dick Carrier just cannot find it in himself to ever say anything decent about Acharya or her work...."

- (From here)

Dick Carrier doesn't seem to realize that he is inadvertently helping to prove Acharya's contentions in her 1999 book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. Acharya is about half-way finished with a 2nd edition of "Christ Conspiracy," which will likely come out in 2014 after her current project on Moses that will be published soon.

The Nazareth / Bethlehem Debate

I am shocked at the comment by Carrier in the video below at around 3:10:

"The first thing to know is, forget about all the other mythicist theories ... so, I say, if you want a simple rule, basically, if you don't hear it from me [Dick Carrier] be skeptical of it."

Richard Carrier: The Historicity of Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XORm2QtR-os

There are plenty of other scholars performing work as good as & often much better than Carrier's. As Earl Doherty said, Carrier has an "ego the size of a bus." Dick Carrier's utter arrogance and conceit is out of control!!! He is an embarrassment to all of us Freethinkers / Mythicists!

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Thanks for pointing all that out.

Dishonestly trashing me and my work for YEARS, without even studying it. Yet, this new book appears to be a regurgitation of numerous ideas I brought forth in The Christ Conspiracy published in 1999 and since. (Note that I actually attribute my sources - it's called "plagiarism" otherwise.)

"The first thing to know is, forget about all the other mythicist theories ... so, I say, if you want a simple rule, basically, if you don't hear it from me [Dick Carrier] be skeptical of it."

Is someone an omniscient cult leader?

These guys are going to spend the rest of their lives trying to catch up to my work - wait until my Moses book is published!

As Doherty also said, "Why are there so many assholes in this field?"

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Carrier claims:
Code:
"The good news is that I believe this will be the first comprehensive pro-Jesus myth book ever published by a respected academic press and under formal peer review. That lends considerable weight to the work and will gain it significant academic attention in the field. Indeed, apart from Brodie’s brief confessional treatise supportive of myth (but not comprehensively arguing for it), which was also published by Sheffield-Phoenix (Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus, released last year–see my review: Brodie on Jesus), I think this will be the first pro-Jesus myth book of any kind published by a university press in the last fifty years."

- Update on Historicity of Jesus
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4090

Not sure if anybody has checked that claim. It may be true within the last 50 years, likely due to the discrimination against mythicists, so, good on 'em for that and I'll give his book a going over but, there are several great books on mythicism - wonder if he's heard of them?:

Mythicist Timeline

Mainstream scholarship: Abraham and Moses mythicism is respectable

List of 180+ mythicists

Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position

What is a Mythicist?

Why I am A Mythicist


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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:46 am 
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I've noticed this same trend out of Carrier and Godfrey. At first attack and dismiss, then consider for a while, then present it as their own idea.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
I've noticed this same trend out of Carrier and Godfrey. At first attack and dismiss, then consider for a while, then present it as their own idea.

Oy gevalt! Ain't that the typical truth.

How many discoveries were actually made by women, who were pushed out and had their ideas stolen? Since we have made up 50% of the populace for a very long time, one would imagine much more than the seeming 1% of attribution.

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