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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:39 am 
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Zeus
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I'll take parthenogenesis for five points.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:47 am 
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Humm... That would seem like it, except Webster says:

Quote:
reproduction by development of an unfertilized usu. female gamete that occurs esp among lower plants and invertebrate animals.


A gamete is a mature male or female germ cell usu. possessing a haploid chromosome set and capable of initiating formation of a new diploid individual by fusion with a gamete of the opposite sex.

It still doesn't make sense or IF that is the case then ancient people knew more about cells then we give them credit for and made anthropomorphic stories about them.

Then again... Let's back up for a moment and look at this again. Parthenogenesis is from the greek parthenos + L. ggenesis 1849. Given that it is Greek and Latin mixed together, that rather screws everything up with saying "Virgin Beginning". This way of defining the word can mean anything, including miraculous births.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:27 am 
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Should have gone with something from 'Potent Potables' instead...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:29 am 
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Sorry. I have a tendency to really breakdown words to find their very basic meanings.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:49 pm 
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If theists are so interested in virgin birth and immaculate conception etc then why aren't they interested in cockroaches and frogs that can multiply without sexual union? Shouldn't they at least be held in high regard as demigods or Saints? Or, maybe they ARE the gods?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:41 am 
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Hahahahahahahaha, Saint Cucaracha :D Why not? David Icke believes lizards rule the world.

Yo no puedo caminar.

Virgins are over-rated. Give me a woman with experience anytime.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:00 pm 
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To qwistrod:
Quote:
"I do not profess to be an expert but I have heard that the virgin birth was inspired by a passage in Isaiah in the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. However the Septuagint mistranslated the Hebrew word for 'young woman' which was 'almah' by the Greek word for 'virgin' which was 'parthenos'.

I am not sure how the evangelists could have been influenced by myths if they got the idea of a virgin birth from Isaiah (Septuagint version). Unless the Septuagint translator was influenced by these myths."


You are certainly on the correct line of thought here. But a bit more on the words you bring up. In the Hebrew, the word usually translated "a virgin" is "ha-almah" meaning, "the young woman", the "ha" being the article "the" and is never properly translated "a". Additionally, the Hebrew word for virgin, if it were used within the context of Isaiah 7, would be "b'tulah" which means, "a virgin".

The Greek "parthenos" is a somewhat generic word that can be translated quite loosely to cover all needs, leaving it essentially up to the translator to decide the words to use according to his or her subjective understanding of the context. In the classical Greek, there are no words to specify such meanings as, virgin, maiden, young woman, etc. Parthenos covers just about all of them.

For lack of space and time, there are other examples of this kind of misuse or misapplication of the Greek, "parthenos" by the translators of the the Septuagint.

Later, at the hands of St. Jerome, so-called, the "old Testament" was translated into Latin. This essentially left the interpretation of Isaiah 7, to the delight of the early church fathers, up for grabs, so to speak, thereby giving legitimacy to the age-old story of "virgin births" as it was applied to a fictional savior named Jesus. As the church fathers searched the Old Testament for their proof of the Messiah, this was one of the most profound proofs found.

Also, within this context, the very idea that the prophecy brought to the King of Judah was supposed to be a "sign" intended to enlighten the people with hope and a sense of security while referring to someone who would not be born for another 700 years is exposed for the cruel absurdity it really is. Especially when the people of Judah were facing the threat of annihilation by invaders who were right at their doorstep!

This so-called prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with a Messiah who would come to pay for the sins of the whole world. What a tragic joke by the Roman Church.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:18 pm 
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Thank you. Yes, the Greek word parthenos/παρθένος /\can be viewed in the same manner as the term almah, in the sense that it can mean not only "virgin" but also "young woman" and "maiden."

Nevertheless, its usage in describing, say, the Greek goddess Athena, in naming her temple at Athens the "Parthenon," conferred a meaning of purity, as in the word "virgin." One goddess who was deemed "parthenos" even though she was a mother was Zeus's wife, Hera, who bathed annually specifically to renew her virginity.

In mythology, "virgin" does not refer to the state of one's genitalia but, rather, to the purity of the concept, which is often about not a "real person" who even possesses genitals but an abstract idea, such as the "rosy-fingered Dawn," who traditionally gives birth to the sun. The meaning being conveyed is the freshness of the morning before the sun rises.

Moreover, the word "parthenos" is accepted in modern times as specifically conveying virginity; hence, the word "parthenogenesis." Dictionary entries for this word specifically cite it as coming from "Greek parthenos, virgin + genesis." The word "parthenogenesis" or "parthenogeny" would be meaningless if the connotation of parthenos here was simply "young woman" or "maiden." Indeed, the term would not exist.

The same term parthenos is used in the New Testament (Mt 1:23) to describe Mary's state - it is universally translated into English as "virgin."

In any event, it is clear that, despite any hair-splitting, the "Christian" virgin-birth concept was widely understood and applied to other gods, goddesses, heroes, et al., long before Christ's purported advent.

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:33 am 
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In other words, the writers were intentionally going over Old Testament writings to try and find passages that seem to justify the inclusion of a traditional mystery school Virgin Birth of the sun motif. The writer wanted to bring this solar aspect into a Judaized setting, much the same way the writer of John was going through Psalms 82 and found a reference to El Elyon telling the other gods of the pre monotheistic Elohim pantheon that they are "gods".

Quote:
John 10:30...
“I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? (Psalms 82:6) If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken – what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

In my Sacred Scriptures Bethel edition Hebrew to English translated Bible Psalms 82:6 reads:
Quote:
“I said, You are Elohim, And all of you sons of the most high.”

And in the New International Bible the same verse reads:
Quote:
“I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’


The most high God is El Elyon the pre monotheistic supreme deity who was later replaced with Yahweh, who was previously one of his sons from the former pantheon of many "gods". So the writer was trying to insert the mystical / religious realization of eastern thought and the higher cultures into a Jewish-like setting. It's probably the case of a mystery school initiate with ties to - or a background in - Judaism, wanting to bring some of the higher mystery school oriented knowledge about the unity between God and Man into the environment of Judaism where God and Man are commonly viewed as distinctly separated and apart. Looking back on Psalms 82:6 the writer found a reference to what he thought - as of the Common Era long after the monotheistic evolution had taken the lead in Judaism - was an old verse where God is telling the people of Israel that they are "gods", or sons of God. So he saw an opportunity to write this passage about Jesus claiming to be God / the son of God, and used Psalm 82:6 to justify this claim via the Old Testament scriptures. It seems like a pretty good intention where the writer's trying as hard as he can to bridge the long percieved gap between God and Man in Judaism in order to bring about what he saw was a necessary change that needed happen as of the turning over the new Great Year cycle, but the writer actually misunderstood what Psalms 82:6 is referring to in terms of the most high God El Elyon telling the sons of El - which were actually "gods" of the old Elohim Pantheon format - that they are "gods". They actually were "gods" in the older pantheon format, not the common people, or Judges, or Angels. God wasn't actually telling the common people of Israel that they are "gods" at all when you understand the verse as one of many remnants from the older polytheistic religious setting. So once again a New Testament writer was trying to seek out verses from the Old Testament in order to make the inclusion of higher mystery school knowledge into a Judaized setting appear Biblically correct and in perfect alignment with the law so the people would accept it as such. Just like the Virgin Birth motif.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:53 am 
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Quote:
Psalms 82:6 "I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High."

The "Son" of God is the "Sun" of God :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1702
Quote:
"...the polytheistic Hebrews and Israelites worshipped a variety of Elohim, Baalin and Adonai, many of which were aspects of the sun, such as El Elyon, the Most High God. In addition, at Amos 5:26 is a verse concerning the mysterious "Kaiwan," the "star-god" of the house of Israel..."

- Christ Conspiracy page 136

P.S. In Greek, Helios is spelled without the h = ELios

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:01 am 
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Tat Tvam Asi said:

Quote:
In other words, the writers were intentionally going over Old Testament writings to try and find passages that seem to justify the inclusion of a traditional mystery school Virgin Birth of the sun motif.


This is exactly the case. However, in order to give credibility to the references they found, the early church fathers of the roman church had no problem with "editing" the text to suit their nefarious purposes.

For example, the reference, "a virgin shall conceive," has been mistranslated. In the Hebrew, it reads, "the young woman is with child" or "is pregnant". The present tense. Hebrew: ha-ra, is pregnant (Feminine, singular). To legitimately say "shall conceive" or "become pregnant" future tense, it would say in the Hebrew, "ta-ha-re" (Feminine, Singular, 3rd person, future).

It is in the sense that Isaiah is pointing to the young woman and saying that Y'hovah himself will give you a sign, and says, "Look, the young woman is pregnant and shall have a son. And she shall call his name Imanu El," which means, "with us (Judah) is God" (as opposed to the two conspirators who were invading the land of Judah). The "sign" was not the young woman in this context but, rather, the child. The sign was that before the child would reach a certain age and development, the land would be vacated of those two invading firebrands.

What the roman church fathers did was to perpetrate the hoax in order to legitimize their sun worship. That so-called prophecy of Isaiah 7 was purely a prophecy of the time and did not in any way point to a sun god to be born 700 years in the future.

Please do not misconstrue. I am not in any way attempting to validate the Hebrew Tanakh. But the Christians claim their legitimacy from it. So I play the Devil's advocate :twisted: , so to speak, and show that regardless of the status of the Hebrew Bible or the religion that came out of it, the Christians have perpetrated and perpetuated a grievous hoax over the last 2,000 years or so and millions have been murdered in the name of their sun god and multiple millions of daily lives invalidated because of him. Merely an extension of the same worship we have seen for many thousands of years bce.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:52 pm 
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It's interesting to have grown up believing these myths as factual and then eventually come around to understanding all of this and seeing the intention behind what the writers were trying to do. They really did a choppy job of trying to paste together the narratives. You can see them blunder their way right on through the New Testament.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Hercules, Born of a Virgin

Hercules

"The cult of Hercules was flourishing as early as in the sixth century B.C. From the very beginning, Hercules was looked upon as the son of god and the redeemer of mankind. As time went by, the tales told of his life were expanded and even more idealised by the Stoics, and others. At the beginning of the Christian era, the faith of Hercules was spread in large parts of the Mediterranean area, Greece, Syria, and Rome.

A young virgin, Alcmene, is married to an earthly man, Amphitryon. He does not touch his wife, however, until the great god Zeus has impregnated her, so that she can give birth to a son, half-man, half-god, while still remaining a virgin......"

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:25 pm 
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I would suggest watching the entire series, but this video hits specifically on what we've been discussing here and the point Acharya has been trying to make:


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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Be sure also to check out my "Virgin Birth" articles, including my revamp of my popular article "Mithra: The Pagan Christ."

Here's a pertinent excerpt:

The Virgin Mother Anahita

Unlike various other rock- or cave-born gods, Mithra is not depicted in the Roman cultus as having been given birth by a mortal woman or a goddess; hence, it is claimed that he was not "born of a virgin." However, a number of writers over the centuries have asserted otherwise, including several modern Persian and Armenian scholars who are apparently reflecting an ancient tradition from Near Eastern Mithraism.

"The worship of Mithra and Anahita, the virgin mother of Mithra, was well-known in the Achaemenian period."

For example, Dr. Badi Badiozamani says that a "person" named "Mehr" or Mithra was "born of a virgin named Nahid Anahita ('immaculate')" and that "the worship of Mithra and Anahita, the virgin mother of Mithra, was well-known in the Achaemenian period [558-330 BCE]..." (Badiozamani, 96) Philosophy professor Mohammed Ali Amir-Moezzi states: "Dans le mithraïsme, ainsi que le mazdéisme populaire, (A)Nāhīd, mère de Mithra/Mehr, est vierge"--"In Mithraism, as in popular Mazdaism, Anahid, the mother of Mithra, is a virgin." (Amir-Moezzi, 78-79) Comparing the rock birth with that of the virgin mother, Dr. Amir-Moezzi also says:

Quote:
...il y a donc analogie entre le rocher, symbole d'incorruptibilité, qui donne naissance au dieu iranien et la mère de celui-ci, Anāhīd, éternellement vierge et jeune.

(...so there is analogy between the rock, a symbol of incorruptibility, giving birth to the Iranian god and the mother of that (same) one, Anahid, eternally virgin and young.)

In Mithraic Iconography and Ideology (78), Dr. Leroy A. Campbell calls Anahita the "great goddess of virgin purity," and Religious History professor Dr. Claas J. Bleeker says, "In the Avestan religion she is the typical virgin." (Bleeker (1963), 100)

One modern writer ("Mithraism and Christianity") portrays the Mithra myth thus:

Quote:
According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title "Mother of God".

The Parthian princes of Armenia were all priests of Mithras, and an entire district of this land was dedicated to the Virgin Mother Anahita. Many Mithraeums, or Mithraic temples, were built in Armenia, which remained one of the last strongholds of Mithraism. The largest near-eastern Mithraeum was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras."

Anahita, also known as "Anaitis"--whose very name means "Pure" and "Untainted" and who was equated in antiquity with the virgin goddess Artemis--is certainly an Indo-Iranian goddess of some antiquity, dating back at least to the first half of the first millennium prior to the common era and enjoying "widespread popularity" around Asia Minor. Indeed, Anahita has been called "the best known divinity of the Persians" in Asia Minor. (de Jong, 268)

Moreover, concerning Mithra Schaff-Herzog says, "The Achaemenidae worshiped him as making the great triad with Ahura and Anahita." Ostensibly, this "triad" was the same as God the Father, the Virgin and Jesus, which would tend to confirm the assertion that Anahita was Mithra's virgin mother. That Anahita was closely associated with Mithra at least five centuries before the common era is evident from the equation made by Herodotus (1.131) in naming "Mitra" as the Persian counterpart of the Near and Middle Eastern goddesses Alilat and Mylitta. (de Jong, 269-270)

Moreover, Mithra's prototype, the Indian Mitra, was likewise born of a female, Aditi, the "mother of the gods," the inviolable or virgin dawn. Hence, we would expect an earlier form of Mithra also to possess this virgin-mother motif, which seems to have been lost or deliberately severed in the all-male Roman Mithraism.

Well known to scholars, the pre-Christian divine birth and virgin mother motifs are documented in the archaeological and literary records, as verified by Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso in The Cult of the Divine Birth in Ancient Greece and Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity.

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