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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Neith: Virgin Mother of the World

I would also like to draw your attention to my article excerpting Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity by Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso. In my estimation Dr. Rigoglioso has done what needs to be done by dozens if not hundreds of academics with each major issue and many minor ones that I raise in my books. If one can do an entire, remarkable study of the Virgin Birth alone, one can do them with each of these fascinating subjects.

The pre-Christian divine birth and virgin mother motifs have been established through the archaeological and literary record, a fact proved, I opine, by the works of Dr. Rigoglioso. They possess multifold meanings, which have likewise been explored by Marguerite and other scholars. As a nature lover, to me the most fascinating and deepest meaning is that which reflects the observations of the natural world, nature worship and astrotheology, such as the story of the inviolable and virgin dawn giving birth to the sun.

Here are links to Rigoglioso's books:

The Cult of the Divine Birth in Ancient Greece
Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity

Like many academic publications, these books are very expensive - I'd like to do a paperback edition, replete with images as I did with Barbara Walker's book, and make them more available to the public. However, they are scholarly; so, many people will never make the effort to dig through them. But that's what they have me for! To me, digging through all this evidence and well-expressed theory is like eating peanuts - or pistachios, as the case may be. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:17 pm 
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The discussion surrounding the virgin birth is huge so I've organized some of the excerpts, articles and blogs on that issue here in one post. There are, of course, many more that could be written but are already discussed throughout Acharya's works.

Neith, Virgin Mother of the World
http://truthbeknown.com/neith.html

Blog: The Virgin-Born Son of the Sun God
http://freethoughtnation.com/component/ ... f-god.html

The blog: Neith, Virgin Mother of the World
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/contri ... world.html

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!
http://freethoughtnation.com/contributi ... other.html

Born of a Virgin on December 25th: Horus, Sun God of Egypt
http://truthbeknown.com/horus.html

Osiris - Pagan Origins of Christianity video:

"Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHoDpQaYXw4

The Virgin Birth
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2270&start=0

GodAlmighty speaks on CiE
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3548&start=0

From Osiris to Christ: Ep. 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYjq0ncm0g0

From Osiris to Christ: Ep. 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_IdFsTaQ0A

Who is the Virgin Mary?
http://truthbeknown.com/mary.html

Who is Mary Magdalene?
http://truthbeknown.com/mary-magdalene.html

Was Krishna Born of a Virgin?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/virgin.htm

The Virgin-Born Son of the Sun God
http://freethoughtnation.com/component/ ... f-god.html

Was Krishna's Mother a Virgin?
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... php?t=1597

Was Krishna Born of a Virgin?
http://truthbeknown.com/was-krishna-bor ... evaki.html

http://tbknews.blogspot.com/search?q=virgin

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:38 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeD37vfntwo

Marguerite Rigoglioso-When Spirit Possession is Sexual Encounter-The Case for a Cult of Divine-1

Acharya S. -- Marguerite says that miraculous birth was an actual female siddhi -- she says she discusses Egypt and Mary's conception of Jesus.

Not sure where this would go, moderation-wise, but thought you'd want to listen to her lecture -- 2011 University of Kent -- Daimonic Intelligence conference.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:30 am 
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Hmmmm... well, I watched part 1, and that was enough for me. Let me preface by saying that I have a copy of Cult of Divine Birth and have made great use of it in my online debates and when I was making Youtube vids. I found it to be quite scholarly.

In this video, however, she begins to stray away from scholarship and into the area of speculation and personal opinion (at least she confesses as much) and by the end departs from science and into the supernatural, proposing the possibility (which she admits she believes is the case) that human parthenogenesis is indeed physically possible (with the aid of spiritual entities) and that some of the ancient myths involving parthenogenesis might have literally happened. She speaks of Mary actually existing as an apotheosized goddess in the astral plane and other such talk that, if this were someone's first impression of her, might cause such a person to dismiss her and her legitimate scholarly works.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:17 am 
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Acharya has pointed out that Marguerite is an Evemerist on these issues right now in her conclusions, which Acharya does not agree with, but, other than that her work is scholarly and provides many primary sources that prove the mythicist case. The problem is Marguerite's over-reaching conclusions that these were real people as GA said: "speculation and personal opinion (at least she confesses as much)."

Quote:
"I felt as if the author was overreaching in her conclusions ... "

"Importantly, Marguerite and I differ substantially in our conclusions as to what this evidence means in the overall scheme of things. While she avers that the Virgin Mary was a real person, I evince in my numerous books and articles that these various characters, including the Christian figures, represent mythical motifs reflective of ancient nature worship, solar mythology and astrotheology."

- Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:30 am 
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From the Introduction to the book “Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity”

Plentiful evidence shows that in their earliest cults, before they were subsumed under patriarchal pantheons as the wives, sisters, and daughters of male gods, various female deities of the ancient Mediterranean world were indeed considered self-generating, virgin creatrixes.

Any theologian having knowledge of the History of Religion would feel happy to read of an “atheist” theory as the above.
The author obviously believes that the archaic lay people of 40,000 years ago (the first to fashion figurines of the Mother) were all theologically and philosophically well educated and thus they were producing imaginary... self-generating, virgin creatrixes!!
The images of those virgin creatrixes the God himself had them implanted in the brains (in the unconscious to be exact, according to the inspired theory of Jung) of the poor people and so, no matter what experiences real life was feeding them with, they were fantasizing about virgin mothers.

The term “Virgin” is a title that the woman retained for life because she had to suffer torture for up to seven years in order to acquire it.

To whoever is sincerely interested in knowing what “Virgin” meant in the remote past, I suggest to start by reading paragraph 3, “The Seclusion of Girls at Puberty”, of Chapter 60 of Frazer’s “The Golden Bough” (the book is available free of charge in the net) so through the myth of the rape of Danae by Zeus will be able to discern between the harsh reality that the layman lived in and the world of fantasy in which theologians live into.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Marguerite Rigoglioso is not necessarily an atheist to my knowledge. If you're going to comment here it's usually wise to read through the thread and the links.

So, Dimitrios, let me get this straight, you're also denying the virgin birth of Jesus and the virginity of Mary then?

Neith, Virgin Mother of the World
http://truthbeknown.com/neith.html

The blog: Neith, Virgin Mother of the World
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/contri ... world.html

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!
http://freethoughtnation.com/contributi ... other.html

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viewtopic.php?p=27655#p27655

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Quote:
Any theologian having knowledge of the History of Religion would feel happy to read of an “atheist” theory as the above.
The author obviously believes that the archaic lay people of 40,000 years ago (the first to fashion figurines of the Mother) were all theologically and philosophically well educated and thus they were producing imaginary... self-generating, virgin creatrixes!!


Didn't primitive people recognize the earth as self generating? Does it take theological and philosophical education to produce the obvious? Just wonder where you're trying to go with this one?

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:28 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
proposing the possibility (which she admits she believes is the case) that human parthenogenesis is indeed physically possible (with the aid of spiritual entities) and that some of the ancient myths involving parthenogenesis might have literally happened. She speaks of Mary actually existing as an apotheosized goddess


:D

when i find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary comes to me
speaking words of wisdom let it be
and in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me
speaking words of wisdom....

Jesus, literalism dies hard.

Quote:
parthenogenesis might have literally happened.


yes, and a bird in the hand might really be worth two in the bush, but that's hardly the point is it.

oh well, i have a dream that one day all the peoples of the world will stop literalising metaphors.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
So, Dimitrios, let me get this straight, you're also denying the virgin birth of Jesus and the virginity of Mary then?


I’ve already stated that The term “Virgin” is a title that the woman retained for life because she had to suffer torture for up to seven years in order to acquire it. and therefore it is understood that it is just an epithet that has nothing to do with the anatomy of the woman (either Mother of gods or not).

As regards Mary, once she is considered a Mother of god/s she is entitled to bear the title Virgin.
None of these motifs “son of God”, “Virgin Mother”, “Mother of gods” was invented by modern theologians and thus I chose to apply to them the meanings that the ancients attributed to them.

Your theory I know and I understand, so there is no need right now to go through the links you provided. If our conversation reaches the point where evidence will have to be presented, you will direct me to where your evidence is and I will do the same.

For the time being it is necessary to establish the fact that the virginity of the Mother of gods is only one chapter in the general story of the gods and that for one to understand its full meaning one should be capable of connecting the virginity of the Mother with, for example, the killing of the first born or the fact that the Mother of the gods is a common woman.
In the same way it is an oxymoron to say “virgin mother” is equally oxymoron to address a non god woman “mother of gods”. In order for all these motifs to be connected in order to constitute a reasonable story, a long study of the ancient texts is required and not the philosophizing attitude of Rigoglioso.

Well, in order to get started, can you cite a passage in some ancient texts that justifies the existence of the self-generating goddess concept?


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
Didn't primitive people recognize the earth as self generating?

Definitely not!
Primitive people were primitive but idiots were not.

How long have you been studying ancient and archaic texts?

When the sky was separated from the earth,
When the gods ascended to the sky.


(The Pyramid Texts, Utt. 519 §1208)

By “sky” the fathering god is meant and by “earth” the gods and humans bearing mother.

The separation of the sky from the earth is a motif known from almost every culture of earth.
According to the story of the gods the humans expelled the gods who climbed a ladder each and went to live in the sky. Since the gods became heavenly the sky is the symbol of the gods and the earth the symbol of the humans who remained behind.

The “self-generating earth” as “Great Mother” is a silly theological invention.

Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
Does it take theological and philosophical education to produce the obvious? Just wonder where you're trying to go with this one?

The obvious does not exist. Especially when it is the obvious pointed at by allegorical interpretations.
I go with this one there where it goes by itself: the wisdom offered by the ancient texts!


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:13 pm 
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Dimitrios wrote:
How long have you been studying ancient and archaic texts?

When the sky was separated from the earth,
When the gods ascended to the sky.


(The Pyramid Texts, Utt. 519 §1208)

By “sky” the fathering god is meant and by “earth” the gods and humans bearing mother.



At this point I must ask you the same, since you quoted the Pyramid Texts, which follow in the Egyptian tradition exactly opposite of what you typed here- the MOTHER is the sky, the FATHER is the earth. Nut is the sky goddess and her twin brother and husband Geb is the earth god.

In the Pyramid texts the ascension of gods refers to the helical rising of their constellation stars (such as Orion for Osiris and Sirius for Isis), it had nothing to do with humans expelling other humans who then had nowhere to go but up, regardless of whether or not "up" for you means in physical location (like the Greek Olympians) or simply in social status. If your position is supported by ancient texts on this point you stated here, they are elsewhere because the Pyramid Text corpus is not one of them.

Quote:
can you cite a passage in some ancient texts that justifies the existence of the self-generating goddess concept?


The Greek earth goddess Gaia in Hesiod's Theogony circa 8th century BCE, self-generated her first generation of children. As per Professor Apostolos N. Athanassakis's translation, lines 126 to 135:
"Gaia now first gave birth to starry Ouranos, ... and then she bore Pontos, ... all these she bore WITHOUT mating in sweet love. But THEN she did couple with Ouranos to bear deep-eddying Okeanos, Koios and Kreios, Hyperion and Iapetos, Theia and Rheia, Themis and Mnemosyne, as well as gold-wreathed Phoibe and lovely Tethys. Kronos, the sinuous-minded, was her last born," etc. and so on. It's interesting to note that this makes TWELVE children of Uranus & Gaia together. Twelve being another recurring motif, along with virgin birth.

Anyway, Gaia here is both the earth deity and self-generating mother, quite in line with Tat's post.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:24 pm 
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Dimitrios wrote:
Your theory I know and I understand, so there is no need right now to go through the links you provided.

Dimitrios, your comments prove otherwise. If you're not going to study the subject then I see no reason to waste any time with your opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:43 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
At this point I must ask you the same, since you quoted the Pyramid Texts, which follow in the Egyptian tradition exactly opposite of what you typed here- the MOTHER is the sky, the FATHER is the earth. Nut is the sky goddess and her twin brother and husband Geb is the earth god.

Glad to talk with someone having knowledge of the Egyptian lore.
You are of course correct, but that is just scratching the surface. This unique and quite abnormal situation has arisen from the fact that the Mothers, the Mother wombs, the slave women who gave birth to humanity were said to belong to Geb. The cunning Egyptian priesthood, which taught theology to the entire world, has managed to transfigure everything, from the name of the dwelling place of the gods to the creation of the unnatural concept of the soul.
If you are interested, I’ve posted a small article in Richard Dawkins Foundation page in G+
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities ... 0200696020
The title of the post is “RELIGION IS THE PRODUCT OF THE PRIESTHOOD”, dated May 17, 2013. The avatar is the same and therefore by scrolling down to the given date you’ll locate it quite easily. It is shown there, with the use of the hieroglyphic text translated word for word, how the earthly residence of the gods was changed into a heavenly one. I am not asking you to read an entire book but when I speak of studying the ancient text I mean studying, not just reading the translations.

GodAlmighty wrote:
In the Pyramid texts the ascension of gods refers to the helical rising of their constellation stars (such as Orion for Osiris and Sirius for Isis), it had nothing to do with humans expelling other humans who then had nowhere to go but up,...

The gods climbed their private ladder each one of them to the sky and escaped the wrath of the “humans”. That is what the ancient Egyptians, the people, believed. So, when the Pharaoh was transformed into a god and his time came that he should also ascend to the sky a god had to see to it that a ladder was provided for the Pharaoh. Any god who would refuse to provide the Pharaoh with a sky ladder would be punished by having no roast beef to eat (the relevant hieroglyphic texts at your disposal any time).

So please do not give me those theological jokes about heliacal risings and the such.
GodAlmighty wrote:
The Greek earth goddess Gaia in Hesiod's Theogony circa 8th century BCE, self-generated her first generation of children. As per Professor Apostolos N. Athanassakis's translation, lines 126 to 135:
"Gaia now first gave birth to starry Ouranos, ...

Hesiod included in the Greek lore the theological nonsense of the Orphics. What matters is what the people believed and not what the pupils of the Egyptian priesthood, the Orphics, were preaching.
There is a big difference between lore recorded in the 8h century BCE and lore recorded in 25th century BCE.

Yet, Gaia is just one of the names of the Great Mother. Listen to Aeschylus:

εμοί δε μήτηρ ουχ άπαξ μόνον Θέμις και Γαία, πολλών ονομάτων μορφή μία._

[i]Often my mother Themis, or Earth, though one form, she had many names
(Premetheus Bound, verses 221-2)

Gaia’s name in the Tanakh is Lilith.

GodAlmighty wrote:
Anyway, Gaia here is both the earth deity and self-generating mother, quite in line with Tat's post.

If you want to insist on that, be honest and inform your readers that it is only the theological part of the myth and that what people actually believed is what Campbell called the “monomyth” and Jung “archetypes”. An ancient story about “gods” and the way they treated “humans” which is the same all over the earth.
You may interpret and read between the lines whatever serves your theory. The same was done by others before: they thought the gods were extraterrestrials and were interpreting everything so that it will serve their theory. You are of the opinion that gods were stars and do the same. Neither they not you dare cite the texts of the Near East.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 am 
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Dimitrios wrote:
This unique and quite abnormal situation has arisen from the fact that the Mothers, the Mother wombs, the slave women who gave birth to humanity were said to belong to Geb.


The first I've heard of this, can I press you for a citation? Because there certainly weren't any sources cited to support this at the attached link you gave.

Quote:
The gods climbed their private ladder each one of them to the sky and escaped the wrath of the “humans”. That is what the ancient Egyptians, the people, believed. So, when the Pharaoh was transformed into a god and his time came that he should also ascend to the sky a god had to see to it that a ladder was provided for the Pharaoh. Any god who would refuse to provide the Pharaoh with a sky ladder would be punished by having no roast beef to eat (the relevant hieroglyphic texts at your disposal any time).

So please do not give me those theological jokes about heliacal risings and the such.


It's not a joke when it is unambiguously indicated by the text itself, speaking of Orion and Sirius and descending below the horizon to enter the Nethwerworld, clearly the heliacal setting, and then the speaking of the rising of these same stars from the eastern horizon at the time the Nile rises, clearly their heliacal rising which signalled the oncoming inundation season.

And it is these same stars- Orion -which this deceased pharaoh you referred to is identified with in these Pyramid Texts and it is explicitly stated that he ascends to the sky with Orion and as Orion, and likewise descends when Orion descends.

You keep trying to reference the ladder as though this somehow swings things more in favor of your position rather than the Pyramid Text's position but you've already admitted the ladder is allegorical so there does not need to be some literal ladder in the sky for the heliacal rising to be conspicuous here in these texts. That same ladder is explicitly said to be used to join Re and escort him across the sky, an obvious reference to the sun crossing the sky, rather than a ladder to some alleged cryptic location where some exiled race of humans fled to.


Quote:
If you want to insist on that, be honest and inform your readers that it is only the theological part of the myth and that what people actually believed is what Campbell called the “monomyth” and Jung “archetypes”. An ancient story about “gods” and the way they treated “humans” which is the same all over the earth.


I disagree that they viewed things in such a way, and this undermines part of Campbell and Jung's theories, which is that these archetypal features of myths are manifestations of mechanisms innately within our brains and thus the similarities can, and often do, even manifest unconsciously. To imply that the Hero's Journey model was something consciously understood by, and deliberately used by, people in Hesiod's time or in the 5th dynasty of Egypt, etc. is a hefty claim that will require some hefty evidence to be persuasive.

That also even undermines Campbell and Jung themselves who never argued against the point that many myths and religions revolved around nature cycles and the movement of stars, etc. Part of their point, where that was concerned, was simply that the way in which these natural events were translated into myth was influenced by innate features in the psyche of our species, hence they end up with similar details in their stories.

Quote:
You may interpret and read between the lines whatever serves your theory. The same was done by others before: they thought the gods were extraterrestrials and were interpreting everything so that it will serve their theory. You are of the opinion that gods were stars and do the same. Neither they not you dare cite the texts of the Near East.


I've already cited the Pyramid Texts, and they explicitly state as much, many, many times "o you gods of the lower sky, the imperishable stars" and so on. That particular point is simply not subject to debate, interpretation, or some "reading between the lines", since the lines themselves explicitly state what they state. The Pyramid Texts state their gods are stars and other celestial bodies and natural elements every bit as much as they state that their gods are Re or Atum etc. Trying to debate one is just as impossible as debating the other, given that both are stated with equal clarity. In other words, what you are arguing here is no less ridiculous than if you had said "Re, Atum, etc., are never mentioned in the Pyramid Texts and were not regarded as gods," when they most certainly were.

I also find your accusation odd here since you were the one who said your position requires an allegorical view and that the obvious does not exist, etc. A bald reading of the text as is works for us, but not for you, it is indeed your position that seems to require reading things "between the lines whatever serves your theory".


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