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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:06 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
it is indeed [Dimitrios'] position that seems to require reading things "between the lines whatever serves your theory".


Having read through the exchange on this page, I find Dimitrios' assertion that the virgin mother is not self-generating to be baseless. I find this to be a fascinating topic, in terms of how the natural cyclic archetypes evolve memetically into myths. GA's reference to Gaia provides an excellent example of how reverence is given to divine powers who produce themselves, as nature appears to do.

In Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity, Rigoglioso makes a good point about what she terms "the ferocity of the gender wars that took place under the cultural transition to patriarchy." It is important to see how the divine autonomous feminine has been subordinated to male visions of deity. In trying to reconstruct what the ancients thought, we have to respect how female traditions have been lost. Her suggestion of a "male theological attack on human female parthenogenetic ability... an aggression against ... an entire priestesshood dedicated to divine birth" rings true in describing the shallow conceptual roots of patriarchal traditions.


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:10 pm 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
The first I've heard of this, can I press you for a citation? Because there certainly weren't any sources cited to support this at the attached link you gave.

I understand it is the first time to hear that the Mother-wombs belonged to Geb. For the Mother-wombs themselves as the creatresses of the humankind, however, you have no objection. ;-)

I guess that you are familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Gilgamesh was a Bull. He was raping all the women of his “city” according to the instructions given to him by the gods, who had him placed in the position of Shepherd, King, Bull.
In the Egyptian texts it is said that the Bull belongs to Geb:

The Great Wild Bull is the ba of Geb

(The Book of the Dead, Papyrus of Ani, Ch. 17, plate 10, line 115)

In the Book of the Dead we also read:

I have recalled with my mouth the speech of Atum my father (when) he destroyed the slave woman of Geb.

(The Book of the Dead, Papyrus of Ani, Ch. 82, plate 27, line 11)

The women raped by gods and their servants were slaves, kept into enclosures (the pens of the flock).
GodAlmighty wrote:

It's not a joke when it is unambiguously indicated by the text itself, speaking of Orion and Sirius and descending below the horizon to enter the Nethwerworld, clearly the heliacal setting, and then the speaking of the rising of these same stars from the eastern horizon at the time the Nile rises, clearly their heliacal rising which signalled the oncoming inundation season.

You have to cite the passages. The Book of the Duat, for example, is a ridiculous guide of the Netherworld prepared by the priesthood and is not to be taken into account. The funerary texts have also been edited by the clergy but their work is easily recognizable.
So, as long as reference is made to Egyptian texts I will not accept anybody’s translation without the presence of the hieroglyphic text.
GodAlmighty wrote:
And it is these same stars- Orion -which this deceased pharaoh you referred to is identified with in these Pyramid Texts and it is explicitly stated that he ascends to the sky with Orion and as Orion, and likewise descends when Orion descends.

Please cite the relevant passages. Not that such passage does not exist but if the passage also occurs without any reference to Orion then it is a mere priestly addition. The priests moved the earthly residence of the gods to the sky by only altering a sign. Why should it be a problem for them to call Orion into play or the paths made of stars!!
GodAlmighty wrote:
You keep trying to reference the ladder as though this somehow swings things more in favor of your position rather than the Pyramid Text's position but you've already admitted the ladder is allegorical so there does not need to be some literal ladder in the sky for the heliacal rising to be conspicuous here in these texts. That same ladder is explicitly said to be used to join Re and escort him across the sky, an obvious reference to the sun crossing the sky, rather than a ladder to some alleged cryptic location where some exiled race of humans fled to.

The means joining earth and sky, be it ladder or rainbow or a high tree, are known from people’s folklore from all over the world. There is nothing allegorical about it. It is a plain joke that the messengers of the already expelled gods told to the people looking for the gods. To get rid of the people the messengers told them that the gods climbed ladders to the sky.
On mountain tops, the messengers were supposed to visit the gods in order to inform them of the happenings and to get their instructions and therefore the mountain tops were not so safe a place!

You may insist that the entire mythology is the product of imagination but the messengers were by necessity real men. They told the people, who were supposedly stupid enough to believe in the real existence of the earthly gods, that the gods became heavenly. These messengers are also present in traditions from all over the world.
GodAlmighty wrote:
I disagree that they viewed things in such a way, and this undermines part of Campbell and Jung's theories, which is that these archetypal features of myths are manifestations of mechanisms innately within our brains and thus the similarities can, and often do, even manifest unconsciously.

Jung’s theory is even more ridiculous than that of Campbell’s. Whatever there is in the unconscious, it got there by means of our five senses.
GodAlmighty wrote:
That also even undermines Campbell and Jung themselves who never argued against the point that many myths and religions revolved around nature cycles and the movement of stars, etc. Part of their point, where that was concerned, was simply that the way in which these natural events were translated into myth was influenced by innate features in the psyche of our species, hence they end up with similar details in their stories.

That’s pure philosophy. The curse of the human mind!
GodAlmighty wrote:
I also find your accusation odd here since you were the one who said your position requires an allegorical view and that the obvious does not exist, etc. A bald reading of the text as is works for us, but not for you, it is indeed your position that seems to require reading things "between the lines whatever serves your theory".

“Bald reading” nice expression, I’ll use it in the future!

So, for a bald reading of the hieroglyphic text, when it is about a passage from the Funerary Texts, you need to be able to make your own translation otherwise you’ll be cheated either by the ancient Egyptian priesthood or the modern translators.
Please do me the favour and read a very small article showing the way in which the texts are mistranslated.
http://dtango.files.wordpress.com/2013/ ... lyphic.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Robert Tulip wrote:
In Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity, Rigoglioso makes a good point about what she terms "the ferocity of the gender wars that took place under the cultural transition to patriarchy."

What evidence does she have to offer for the existence of matriarchy?

There never existed such a social system.

People were worshiping the mother not for giving them life but for fashioning them in the way the gods wanted them to be (in the gods’ image and not in the image of the mother).
The Mother was worshiped by the survivors. Those made not in the image of the gods were exterminated as subhuman animals.

Read the text, guys!


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:24 am 
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Read what text, guys?

Riglioso's research is quite sound and scholarly. Please read her texts:

Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity

Your impression of the mythology and religion of antiquity is erroneous and incomplete, evidently based on the Bible. The Bible has been composed to remove all traces of the divine feminine and to derogate all other cultures. It is largely propaganda, not history. This fact is proved by the Epic of Gilgamesh itself, which was clearly used in the composition of the Moses myth, among others, including the Noah myth.

What we have stated here remains true and factual.

_________________
Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:48 pm 
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Acharya wrote:
Read what text, guys?


The Egyptian Funerary Texts, my dear lady, which you cannot read unless you can do your own translation.

Are you aware of the fact that, as regards the Funerary Texts, Egyptologists (the translators of the hieroglyphic are meant) have been deceiving humanity for close to two hundred years?
For a number of key words they were providing false meanings and now, that some new generation Egyptologists dare point out the wrong translations, they stopped altogether translating the incriminating terms.
My pet example is the following:

the Pyramid Texts, Utterance 436 §789

Note that Faulkner published his translation in 1969 and that Allen’s translation is contemporary.

Faulkner: “This mighty one has been made a spirit for the benefit of(?) his soul.»

Allen: “this controlling power has been akhified for his ba”

Is there anything you understand?
Well, these are the oldest texts which make reference to the Great Mother. Researchers trust the faulty translations and produce faulty theories.
The description of the Great Mother in the 4,500-year old Pyramid Texts matches the depiction of the Great Mother on a 30,000-year old figurine of the Mother.


Acharya wrote:
Riglioso's research is quite sound and scholarly. Please read her texts:

Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity

That much I did read but her book I have no intention to read unless if you tell me that she explains why Neith is fully armed, as her Greek counterpart, Athena, is.
Acharya wrote:
Your impression of the mythology and religion of antiquity is erroneous and incomplete, evidently based on the Bible.

I respect Tanakh but I have no interest in the Christian literature.
My research taught me that the true beliefs of the people one should seek in the older myths and the older texts. Athena, for example, in the later myths was said to have killed the Giant Pallas. In an earlier myth, however, she was reported to have killed her father god, named Pallas, who attempted to rape her. Athena is therefore fully armed so that no one can rape her. She is not an unnatural female being who wants to remain virgin for ever.
Anyway, my study led me to older and even older texts until I got involved with the Egyptian texts and the problem of the translations. I now have all the necessary knowledge and assistance from grammar and dictionaries so that I can verify the translations my self.

The story of the Mother is fascinating and some time it will surface for everybody, and especially women, to know. The reason that the Mother is not the head god, as she once appeared to be, is that she was never a goddess. Neither Virgin Mary nor Venus or Ishtar or Freya are goddesses. Virgin Mary is a common human woman, Venus was a Titaness, Ishtar was judged by the gods, she was found to be non-pure and was executed,. Freya was a Vanir.

No, my dear lady, YOUR impression of mythology is erroneous and it is a pity because you are interested in the Mother and yet you make a great injustice to her.
The following 60-page pdf file is very easy to read because it contains many pictures. It is part of my study and relates the story of the Mother before theologians produced your Astrotheology version.
Read it and perhaps it will manage to plant some doubts into your heart.
http://dtango.files.wordpress.com/2012/ ... d-2013.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Dimitrios wrote:
... I have no intention to read ...


Aaaaand with that, you're done.

You were already warned:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Dimitrios wrote:
Your theory I know and I understand, so there is no need right now to go through the links you provided.

Dimitrios, your comments prove otherwise. If you're not going to study the subject then I see no reason to waste any time with your opinions.


Your nonsensical argumentation aside, obstinacy and willful ignorance toward your opponent's position and evidence stifles any progress to debate.


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