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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:49 pm 
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This episode of the Twilight Zone ends, but there will be another same time, same channel.

Poor guy. I feel sorry that he truly believes the delusion he is under and his brain is like a sponge concerning Evangelical literalism and story believing. Guess the trolls really do live under the bridge and literally eat people- esp goats, but no one believes me. Maybe it's because three billy goats did make it across the bridge and overthrew the troll under the bridge. Baa, Baa, baa, baa!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Well see this is my point exactly. If god inspired the bible to be changed over time as if it was his desire, then why was it written falsely to begin with? And secondly, that means our current version of the bible may ALSO be incorrect and we need to wait for the correct additions to be added in the future. If you know the bible WAS wrong and its likely that its wrong NOW then why go out of your way pretending as though it is true?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:24 pm 
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The devil is all powerful and don't you forget it Yeshua. God is a wimp! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Suns of God, p. 286

Acharya wrote:
In other words, these principle Christian tenets have been part of the religious world for millennia, and do not represent "revelation" from a divine founder. Since this ritual [crucifixion / resurrection] predated the Christian era by centuries, if not millennia, there is no question as to who is the latecomer in the dying-and-rising savior-god competition. The fact that the early apologists used the "devil did it" argument readily reveals that these concepts preceded Christianity, a reality of which the apologists were obviously aware, such that they did not make the case that Pagan humans copied Christianity.

Since the first apologists didn't bother to claim that the pagan religions copied Christianity it seems the modern apologists are just plain out of luck. They're pretty much stuck with the devil got there first argument of the first generation of apologists, which is evident nonsense and very obviously a way of covering up Christianity basically plagiarizing the pagan religions mythic motifs. What a tangled knot these guys have made for themselves.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:14 pm 
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I can't see this mentioned on this forum so I'm posting the results of a little bit of research I've done regarding pre-Christian evidence for the resurrection of Adonis - as theists are always saying that there ain't none!

Pre-Christian mention of the resurrection of Adonis can be found in the 15th Idyll of Theocritus. (250 BCE).

Annual festivals, called Adonia, were held in his honour at Byblus, Alexandria, Athens and other places. Although there were variations in the ceremony itself and in its date, the central idea was the death and resurrection of Adonis. A vivid description of the festival at Alexandria is given by Theocritus in his fifteenth idyll, the Adoniazusae.

Here is a link to Theocritus' 15th idyll...

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Boo ... ritus.html

Here are the relevant lines...

"You only (Adonis) of the demi-gods,
Do visit both this world and the stream of Acheron(The Underworld)
For Agamemnon had no such lot, nor Aias,
That mighty lord of the terrible anger, nor Hector,
The eldest born of the twenty sons of Hecuba, nor Patroclus,
Nor Pyrrhus, that returned out of Troy land,
Nor the heroes of yet more ancient days,
The Lapithai and Deucalion's sons,
Nor the sons of Pelops, and the chiefs of Pelasgian Argos.
Be gracious now, dear Adonis, and propitious
Even in the coming year.
Dear to us has your advent been, Adonis,
And dear shall it be when you come again

It is now generally agreed that Adonis is a vegetation spirit, whose death and return to life (Easter) represent the decay of nature in winter and its revival in spring.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:02 pm 
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And here is yet another little gem (hat tip to Miguel/Abraxas) from an apparent Christian evangelical or other Protestant, in an article titled "Mysterious Origins of Mardi Gras and Ash Wednesday."

After describing various aspects of these (Catholic) festivities as having come from pre-Christian Paganism, the author posts the following quote:

Quote:
Ezekiel 8:14-15

Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD’s house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Tammuz. This god can be traced back to the Sumerian Dumuzi, the god of the subterranean ocean and a shepherd deity, whose sister-consort, Inanna-Ishtar, descended into the lower world to bring him back to life. In his worship are similarities to that of Egyptian Osiris, the Canaanite Baal, and the Syrian Adonis. Gebal or Byblos, twenty-one miles north of Beirut, was the great seat of Adonis worship. The nightly death of the god, the god’s dying before the touch of winter, or the vernal god’s dying with the parched summer are variations on the theme of death and resurrection. Mourning for the god was followed by a celebration of resurrection (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press). [Emphasis added.]

All I can say is "hallelujah!" for this wonderful quote, which I have so far not been able to trace, as I do not have the Wycliffe Bible Commentary, and it does not show up anywhere online.

Notice what I have emphasized there:

1. "The nightly death of the god" - as in the Egyptian mythology, when the noon-sun Ra becomes Atum at dusk, who becomes Osiris at midnight, who becomes Horus at dawn.

2. "The god's dying before the touch of winter," i.e., at the winter solstice, as in the birth of Horus, Dionysus and Mithra, among others.

3. "or the vernal god’s dying with the parched summer" - this one reflects the sun after the summer solstice, where it had attained to its greatest peak and was now "dying" as it moved towards the winter solstice.

Note that Wycliffe specifically names Tammuz, Osiris, Baal and Adonis, followed by a discussion of a god involved in "death and resurrection." These points are very important, in consideration of other information contained in this thread: To wit, the denial of this motif by Christian apologists and minimalists intent on destroying evidence of pre-Christian mythology echoed in the Christ myth. Yet, here we have a respected Christian authority describing this very motif as being applicable to several pre-Christian gods.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:33 pm 
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The whole thing is just plain foolish! Apparently these new apologetic types are too ignorant of both the history of the church fathers apologies and comparative world mythology to know better than to try and claim that no dying-and-rising God-Men existed prior to 150 CE. It blows my mind that this claim has even been made when it's so easily refuted.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Satan knew that God would be sending His only begotten Son to the Earth soon!! So Satan raised up all of these false gods and messiahs to take the place of Jesus!! And even after Jesus died and rose again; Satan still had his false gods and false religions to fight the truth and compete with Jesus who was and is still building His Kingdom at this moment!! Satan and his fallen angels are the ones who propigate false religions and false gods who are actually them!! For Satan has always wanted Gods praise and glory!! And he gets it from his false religions!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:11 pm 
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moses737, if you're going to make supernatural extraordinary claims you'll need to provide sources and citations to evidence to substantiate those claims. In other words, you'll need to provide credible evidence that Satan actually exists. Otherwise, how do we know you're not just selling an invisible product? Replace the word Satan with Santa Claus and maybe you'll understand.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:19 pm 
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moses737 wrote:
Satan knew that God would be sending His only begotten Son to the Earth soon!! So Satan raised up all of these false gods and messiahs to take the place of Jesus!! And even after Jesus died and rose again; Satan still had his false gods and false religions to fight the truth and compete with Jesus who was and is still building His Kingdom at this moment!! Satan and his fallen angels are the ones who propigate false religions and false gods who are actually them!! For Satan has always wanted Gods praise and glory!! And he gets it from his false religions!!


Did the devil also make the sun to "stand still" for three days at the winter solstice every year before Christ's advent? That's the basis for these pre-Christian myths about dying-and-rising. Does the devil make the sun stand still every year in order to mimic Christ in the grave for three days? That's where this whole devil got there first argument leads in the end. also, aside from the sun dying and rising, there are myths about the organic life cycle which involve death and resurrection as well and are interrelated to the life energy of the sun. Does the devil make organic life appear to die and rise every year as some elaborate scheme to mimic the Christ story of death and resurrection? That's the idiocy that goes into the devil got there first belief. The whole thing has to be broken down to what these old pagan myths actually represent in comparison to the Christ story. And in the end it's obvious that the mimicking occurred in the opposite direction - Christians used mythic motifs related to the life and death cycle of the sun and organic life to construct a death and resurrection salvation mythology just as a new age had begun. The beginning of the Christian era was the beginning of the age of Pisces and also the beginning of the new Great Year cycle of nearly 26,000 years. So a mythology was crafted around this new time period which drew from the mythologies of age's gone by and tried to give them a new perspective...

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Did not find this topic in after doing a forum search[apologizes if this is a repost], so thought this should be shared:

http://www.exegetics.org/

"Last Friday Gunnar Samuelsson successfylly defended his thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity: An Inquiry into the Background of the New Testament Terminology of Crucifixion" at Gothenburg University (supervisor Samuel Byrskog)."

source http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2010/05/if-samuelsson-is-right-about.html



Some responses:

[url]
http://blogs.bible.org/bock/darrell_l._ ... final_time
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... about.html
[/url]


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:23 pm 
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In revisiting this thread, I noticed your remarks, natselection1st. What a great find!

I will be interested to see if he has spelled out pretty much the same contentions I (and others) have repeatedly made concerning the use of the term "crucify" to mean shaped in a cruciform or cross, not necessarily thrown to the ground and nailed to a piece of wood.

I'm looking into it for my Christ Con revision. It would be great if the book addressed the artifacts of gods in cruciform - that would be a logical discussion in such a work.

Quote:
Over-interpretation, and probably even pure imagination, have afflicted nearly every wordbook and dictionary that deals with the terms related to crucifixion as well as scholarly depictions of what happened on Calvary....

When it comes to the individual terms, some conclusions can be drawn. A σταυρός is a pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a 'cross' (†). In some cases, it is a kind of suspension device, used for the suspension of corpses, torture or in a few cases executionary suspensions. Very little or nothing is said about what it was made of or how it looked.

And so it goes on with (ἀνα)σταυροῦν and ἀνασκολοπίζειν, crux and patibulum. For example, Samuelsson says "crux is more firmly connected with the suspension of humans than σταυρός." "The ecclesiastically pregnant term crucifigiere did not evolve until the final years before the Common Era, and its usage is hard to define beyond denoting 'to attach in some way to a crux."

As I've contended repeatedly: Crucifigere simply means "to fix to a cross."

natselection1st wrote:
Did not find this topic in after doing a forum search[apologizes if this is a repost], so thought this should be shared:

http://www.exegetics.org/

"Last Friday Gunnar Samuelsson successfylly defended his thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity: An Inquiry into the Background of the New Testament Terminology of Crucifixion" at Gothenburg University (supervisor Samuel Byrskog)."

source http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2010/05/if-samuelsson-is-right-about.html

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Osiris's Resurrection in Tertullian

While apologists and others bend over backwards to make some desperate distinction between the death and resurrection of Osiris and that of Jesus, even to the point of denying that Osiris did die and resurrect, it is clear from Church father Tertullian's comments in Adversus Marcionem (c. 208) that the concept of Osiris's resurrection was obvious enough even to a vested Christian interest such as he.

In book 1, chapter 13 of Against Marcion, Tertullian remarks:

Quote:
Thus Osiris also, whenever he is buried, and looked for to come to life again, and with joy recovered, is an emblem of the regularity wherewith the fruits of the ground return, and the elements recover life, and the year comes round...

Here's Tertullian's original Latin:

Quote:
Sic et Osiris quod semper sepelitur et in vivido quaeritur et cum gaudio invenitur, reciprocarum frugum et vividorum elementorum et recidivi anni fidem argumentantur....

The pertinent Latin word here is vivido, meaning "lively" or "to make alive."

Here we see that Osiris is buried - because he is killed by Seth - and his return or "making alive" is sought, like that in the gospel story, with a successful recovery or resurrection. As we can tell from Tertullian's comment "whenever" (quod semper or "what always"), this passion occurred on a regular basis. I discuss the dates of Osiris's annual passion in Christ in Egypt as well as The 2010 Astrotheology Calendar.

In any event, the death and resurrection of Osiris were so well known in antiquity that this pious Church father was forced to comment upon them. Tertullian also correctly understands this myth to represent natural cycles, including the blossoming of fruit trees in spring, when many cultures celebrated the new year. Here Tertullian essentially is saying that Osiris's passion occurred in the spring, the same as Jesus. With the Egyptian wandering calendar, Osiris's passion cycled throughout the year, occurring not only in spring but also at the winter solstice, which is when it occurred around the turn of the common era. Hence, his resurrection is intimately connected to the sun, as it is on a daily basis, when the god of the nightly underworld becomes born again in his solar sun, Horus.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:47 pm 
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I'm working on my lengthy Chrestos article, entitled "Is Suetonius's Chresto a Reference to Jesus?" I have to remove some material because of space considerations, and here is a related aside that is quite important for Christ-myth studies. As we can see once again, it is completely fallacious to argue that no one in antiquity described the Egyptian god Osiris as resurrecting from the dead.

Osiris Rises to New Life

In his De Iside et Osiride (35; 364f), Greek historian Plutarch (c. 46-120 AD/CE) tells us that Osiris "rose again to a new life," the concept of resurrection evidently forming a major part of not only exoteric but also esoteric religion, e.g., the mysteries. In his discussion, Plutarch uses the Greek word ἀναβίωσις or anabiosis, which means "arise to life" or "return to life." From this passage alone, it is evident that Osiris was a "dying and rising" god, despite the current avoidance of that useful phrase. There can be no doubt that, in the minds of ancient Egyptians, Osiris died and was resurrected on a regular basis, beginning many centuries before the common era. As in the faddish "birth-death-rebirth" phraseology, in this same passage (35; 364f) Osiris could also be said to be "reborn," represented as such by Plutarch's use of the word παλιγγενεσία or palingenesis, literally "again genesis."

Quote:
...οἱ κάτοχοι τοῖς περὶ τὸν Διόνυσον ὀργιασμοῖς. διὸ καὶ ταυρόμορφον Διόνυσον ποιοῦσιν ἀγάλματα πολλοὶ τῶν Ἑλλήνων αἱ δ᾽ Ἠλείων γυναῖκες καὶ παρακαλοῦσιν εὐχόμεναι ‘ποδὶ βοείῳ τὸν θεὸν ἐλθεῖν’ πρὸς αὐτάς. Ἀργείοις δὲ βουγενὴς Διόνυσος ἐπίκλην, ἐστίν: ἀνακαλοῦνται δ᾽ αὐτὸν ὑπὸ σαλπίγγων ἐξ ὕδατος, ἐμβάλλοντες εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον ἄρνα τῷ Πυλαόχῳ τὰς δὲ σάλπιγγας ἐν θύρσοις ἀποκρύπτουσιν, ὡς Σωκράτης ἐν τοῖς περὶ Ὁσίων εἴρηκεν. ὁμολογεῖ δὲ καὶ τὰ Τιτανικὰ καὶ Νυκτέλια τοῖς λεγομένοις Ὀσίριδος διασπασμοῖς καὶ ταῖς ἀναβιώσεσι καὶ παλιγγενεσίαις

I should reiterate here that, when describing Horus's resurrection after being killed by Set and restored by Isis, pre-Christian writer Diodorus uses the term anastasis or "standing up," the same word used in the New Testament to describe Jesus's resurrection. These texts by Diodorus and Plutarch predate by decades to over a century the clear emergence into the historical record of the canonical gospels as we have them, at the end of the second century.

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Here is the relevant passage in its entirety, translated by Frank Cole Babbitt, demonstrating the comparisons between Osiris and Dionysus from antiquity. It should be noted that Dionysus possesses many important parallels in common with not only Osiris but also Moses and Jesus.

Quote:
That Osiris is identical with Dionysus who could more fittingly know than yourself, Clea? For you are at the head of the inspired maidens of Delphi, and have been consecrated by your father and mother in the holy rites of Osiris. If, however, for the benefit of others it is needful to adduce proofs of this identity, let us leave undisturbed what may not be told, but the public ceremonies which the priests perform in the burial of the Apis, when they convey his body on an improvised bier, do not in any way come short of a Bacchic procession; for they fasten skins of fawns about themselves, and carry Bacchic wands and indulge in shoutings and movements exactly as do those who are under the spell of the Dionysiac ecstasies. For the same reason many of the Greeks make statues of Dionysus in the form of a bull; and the women of Elis invoke him, praying that the god may come with the hoof of a bull; and the epithet applied to Dionysus among the Argives is ‘Son of the Bull.’ They call him up out of the water by the sound of trumpets, at the same time casting into the depths a lamb as an offering to the Keeper of the Gate. The trumpets they conceal in Bacchic wands, as Socrates has stated in his treatise on The Holy Ones. Furthermore, the tales regarding the Titans and the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his revivification and regenesis. Similar agreement is found too in the tales about their sepulchres. The Egyptians, as has already been stated, point out tombs of Osiris in many places, and the people of Delphi believe that the remains of Dionysus rest with them close beside the oracle ; and the Holy Ones offer a secret sacrifice in the shrine of Apollo whenever the devotees of Dionysus wake the God of the Mystic Basket. To show that the Greeks regard Dionysus as the lord and master not only of wine, but of the nature of every sort of moisture, it is enough that Pindar be our witness, when he says

May gladsome Dionysus swell the fruit upon the trees,
The hallowed splendour of harvest-time.

For this reason all who reverence Osiris are prohibited from destroying a cultivated tree or blocking up a spring of water.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Christian apologists love to make such claims as: "The first real parallel of a dying and rising god does not appear until A.D. 150, more than a hundred years after the origin of Christianity."

Quote:
"The first real parallel of a dying and rising god does not appear until A.D. 150, more than a hundred years after the origin of Christianity. So if there was any influence of one on the other, it was the influence of the historical event of the New Testament [resurrection] on mythology, not the reverse. The only known account of a god surviving death that predates Christianity is the Egyptian cult god Osiris. In this myth, Osiris is cut into fourteen pieces, scattered around Egypt, then reassembled and brought back to life by the goddess Isis. However, Osiris does not actually come back to physical life but becomes a member of a shadowy underworld...This is far different than Jesus' resurrection account where he was the gloriously risen Prince of life who was seen by others on earth before his ascension into heaven."

- Dr. Norman Geisler

This entire thread proves that wrong. Plus, so do early Christian documents. For example here's Justin Martyr, The First Apology, XXI (around 150 CE):

Quote:
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?"

Whoops! There's early church father Justin Martyr admitting that all those Pagan gods not only existed prior to 150ce, but also, were "crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven." Notice Justin never even attempts to give the impression that Christianity or Jesus existed before any of those Pagan gods? He knew better than to even try to make such an absurd claim because the people of the time all knew better as well. Dr. Norman Geisler simply isn't telling the truth.

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