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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:34 pm 
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One of my favourite passages from the Bible...

Quote:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Book of Revelation, 21



:)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Revelation 22 is also quite interesting:

Quote:
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

and

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:58 am 
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so interesting, it looks like these stones in the scripture above (revelations 21:19-20 the foundations of the great city were garnished with great stones) that those stones are known to the astrologers and associated with the zodiac signs.


see this site and also see the link on this page "birthstones of the zodiac"

http://www.bernardine.com/birthstone/ancient.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Precisely :D

I had birthstones in mind when making the previous two posts. It should be possible to reverse-engineer the system by bunging everything into a spread sheet and seeing what patterns emerge. Match the tribes up with particular stones, then match those up with the months. You might also want to have a look at the Ayurvedic birthstone system, as it's likely to be more accurate than the Western hand-me-downs.

I'd do it meself, but my post-work doobie is screaming at me and it's been a long day, kids.

The passage from Revelation would also imply that Jerusaem itself is an astrotheolgical allegory, rather than an actual place. This would also have implications for Solomon's Temple...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:18 pm 
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And they're given from Pisces to Aries showing the precession of the equinoxes by giving the zodiac in reverse order. The city establishes the Great Year of Greek and Vedic Yuga thought. The reference to "time, times, and half a time" seems to be towards the four lower world ages of the Great Year - Taurus (time), Aries and Pisces (times), and Aquarius (half a time) - which make up 1/3 of the 12 signs of the Great Year and represent the descent into Aries and the ascent out of Pisces bringing the world out of the darkest region of the Great Year and towards the higher Silver and Golden age conditions. The bible covers the last two descending ages and the first two ascending ages between Genesis and Revelation. It's basically one big drama about the earth moving through precession and how mankind looses wisdom and knowledge and then eventually regains it after the cosmic winter conditions have passed - after the darkest ages have passed.

Video Link: The Great Year

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Quote:
It should be possible to reverse-engineer the system by bunging everything into a spread sheet and seeing what patterns emerge.

Interesting idea - did you say you're currently doing that? :mrgreen:

I discuss Revelation as a reflection of the Great Year or precession of the equinoxes in The Christ Conspiracy.

It's yet another fascinating astrotheological development that needs a book of its own.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:54 am 
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it's the law of correlations that means the birthstones are associated with signs. it is also the law that connects the color red (jasper) to aries and to protection as was the new jerusalem protected by the walls.

my previous post shown a link to a website that showed us the astrology signs associated with the stones or jewels spoken of in revelations 21: 19-20 (see Mr Bridger post above for the verse). now see that same websites description of the colors of birthstones and what they mean:
http://www.bernardine.com/birthstone/color.htm


scroll down to the color "red" (you'll see) and read the description of red which i think is the color of jasper or bloodstone (associated with aries) and note that god told the israelites in the land of promise that he'd put up a fire of around them to protect them. the lord promised his oppressed people that He would be like a wall of fire around them so that the city would not need walls. So we may see the wall as Christ.

in short, jasper or bloodstone (not sure) is red, perhaps for aries, the site says of red birthstones:
Red is the color of health, strength, physical energy, sex, passion, courage and protection. It is associated with blood, birth, death and intense emotions. Red symbolizes energy, excitement, strength, power, war and violence, and aggression. It is the color of love as seen in the red Valentine's Day heart and is also associated with anger as in "he's so mad, he saw red". When good fortune arrives it is called a "red-letter day"

is the new jerusalem like a red valentines card?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:55 am 
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Quote:
Interesting idea - did you say you're currently doing that? :mrgreen:


Alright, already! I'm working on it...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:54 pm 
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i'm doing it right now :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Acharya wrote:
Quote:
It should be possible to reverse-engineer the system by bunging everything into a spread sheet and seeing what patterns emerge.

Interesting idea - did you say you're currently doing that? :mrgreen:

I discuss Revelation as a reflection of the Great Year or precession of the equinoxes in The Christ Conspiracy.

It's yet another fascinating astrotheological development that needs a book of its own.


I've started a thread on the chapter in The Christ Conspiracy on The Meaning of Revelation.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:41 pm 
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OK, in regards to a spreadsheet we lucked out and found a good site:
http://www.interpreting-apocalypse-reve ... -jerusalem

under the 4th picture down you will find text showing how each foundational stone is aligned with each sign (don't want to copy and paste from the site for copyright reasons). or just scan the page for "New Jerusalem gemstones".

and yes they are in great year order!

the site also aligns the stones with the 12 tribes, and note that the site states that the stones names are from the greek language (john i guess).

since the spreadsheet is tons of work (more than i thought), gemstones vary from culture to culture and year to year, i'll leave it at that for now.

it also relates to the breastplate of exodux 28:17

hope this helps!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:40 pm 
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Comments from Philo and Josephus linking the Zodiac and the Twelve Jewels are referenced at The Book of Revelation By Robert H. Mounce and at

Quote:
Jewish Encyclopedia:

The vestments of the high priest were interpreted in three ways. The explanation of Philo is as follows ("Vita Mosis," iii. 209): His upper garment was the symbol of the ether, while the blossoms represented the earth, the pomegranates typified running water, and the bells denoted the music of the water. The ephod corresponded to heaven, and the stones on both shoulders to the two hemispheres, one above and the other below the earth. The six names on each of the stones were the six signs of the zodiac, which were denoted also by the twelve names on the breastplate. The miter was the sign of the crown which exalted the high priest above all earthly kings.

Josephus' explanation is this ("Ant." iii. 7, § 7): The coat was the symbol of the earth, the upper garment emblemized heaven, while the bells and pomegranates represented thunder and lightning. The ephod typified the four elements, and the interwoven gold denoted the glory of God. The breastplate was in the center of the ephod, as the earth formed the center of the universe; the girdle symbolized the ocean, the stones on the shoulders the sun and moon, and the jewels in the breastplate the twelve signs of the zodiac, while the miter was a token of heaven.

http://www.fisheaters.com/preciousstones.html


Philo's text, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book25.html states :

Quote:
(124) Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac? For that also is divided into four parts, each consisting of three animals, by which divisions it makes up the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, and winter, distinguishing the four changes, the two solstices, and the two equinoxes, each of which has its limit of three signs of this zodiac, by the revolutions of the sun, according to that unchangeable, and most lasting, and really divine ratio which exists in numbers; (125) on which account they attached it to that which is with great propriety called the logeum. For all the changes of the year and the seasons are arranged by well-defined, and stated, and firm reason; and, though this seems a most extraordinary and incredible thing, by their seasonable changes they display their undeviating and everlasting permanence and durability. (126) And it is said with great correctness, and exceeding beauty also, that the twelve stones all differ in their colour, and that no one of them resembles the other; for also in the zodiac each animal produces that colour which is akin to and belongs to itself, both in the air, and in the earth, and in the water; and it produces it likewise in all the affections which move them, and in all kinds of animals and of plants. ... (133) The high priest, then, being equipped in this way, is properly prepared for the performance of all sacred ceremonies, that, whenever he enters the temple to offer up the prayers and sacrifices in use among his nation, all the world may likewise enter in with him, by means of the imitations of it which he bears about him, the garment reaching to his feet, being the imitation of the air, the pomegranate of the water, the flowery hem of the earth, and the scarlet dye of his robe being the emblem of fire; also, the mantle over his shoulders being a representation of heaven itself; the two hemispheres being further indicated by the round emeralds on the shoulder-blades, on each of which were engraved six characters equivalent to six signs of the zodiac; the twelve stones arranged on the breast in four rows of three stones each, namely the logeum, being also an emblem of that reason which holds together and regulates the universe. (134) For it was indispensable that the man who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete, his son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings;


It appears the Jewish Encyclopedia translation is wrong in its implication that Philo said there are six signs of the zodiac.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:52 am 
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Dear Robert,

As I have told you I think you are onto something because in the ancient world those who could read the stars, which could show the less learned where any particular star or planet would be located in a future date, were naturally seen as people who could foresee human events. One could imagine that many astrologers believed themselves to be seers and visa-versa.

I think Acharya brought up an important point when she stated the possibility that sacred numbers usually have multiple representations just as I see some multiple meanings in the stones John chooses (esp. the last). The numbers John has in mind, I believe, are Buddhist such as Maitreya and Pundarika (Grk. Isph & Gmtr = 666) and I have dedicated a chapter to this in my book, covering such parallels as the seven kings and the seven Buddhas (poss. fr. seven rishis constellation) with seven Jewels & Great Horse Knowing-one legend, the Buddhist/Christian sacred texts said to be sealed with seven golden seals, the Buddha's snake with seven heads, the nagas who get their head split into seven by lightening, the seven-flames of John& Jesus' baptism with the seven-flames of the Buddhists (muni), the 4 horse men with the four heavenly kings of the Buddhist heaven (appear to have the same color), the Buddha as a pre-Christian suffering servant who appears to be injured and always drinks milk and honey like Isaiah's hero (ex Mugapakkha), the Buddhist tattoos, or Mahayana marks (such as those on Maitreya) with the ones on John's hero, John's New Jerusalem landscape with the Buddhist pure-land heaven, the Buddhist final evil age with John's, and finally I opine something like the world has not been better in any small part due to this "revelation".


Regarding Philo I do not understand the connection he makes between the four rows of three (breastplate) and the zodiac "circle"? Also I think it could be argued that both Philo and Josephus wanted to see connections based on their synchronizing tendencies.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:41 pm 
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After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I managed to rustle this up: http://www.editgrid.com/user/mr_bridger/Twelve

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:32 pm 
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editgrid is kwel folks, first time for everything. uhm, were to start, oh! question: where Mr Bridger shows the astrology "signs" in the grid, are they tropical or sidereal?

as a refresher the two systems where signs are determined one of two ways,
are signs determined by:

tropical meaning procession of equanox 1 degree each 72 years (so they drift)

verses

sidereal meaning according to the backdrop of the stars and never changing.


i should read some of the books spoken of here before posting this stuff in case this has already been covered. here is one site that speaks about the two early systems and use thereof and allow me (if i can) to paste from that site the following comments about the two systems:

It is interesting to note that many of the religions of the world, as well as the perpetuation of "tropical astrology" still in vogue today are based on the confused mentalities common to the early first millennia. It is also interesting to consider that the perpetual use of tropical astrology today may be an energetic and harmonic affirmation that perpetuates a chiasm in time that continues to widen at the rate of Earth's precession, one keeping the masses drifting in time-confusion rather than living in the truth that the true sidereal zodiak reveals. Perhaps Pluto's transit through sidereal Sag starting in 2006 will help open the way for the truth of the heavens to eventually shine.

(above from site: http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html)

question #2: could these two opposing schools have something to do with the thought mentioned in this thread that mens knowledge waxes and wanes with the ages?

thanks in advance.


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