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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:41 am 
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Yes, I’m so sorry it took so long to post back but it took reading this many times before it finally sank in. Sure enough, the bible somewhat supports what you have said, although it does neither as empirical proof nor historical evidence, but is quite good enough for me, although with some unanswered questions.
Here are some biblical verses that support (speaks of) points about biblical “Ages”:

Ephesians 2; 6-7
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Ephesians 3: 1-5
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3: 21
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.[/color]

Colossians 1: 26
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

It seems that Ephesians 3: 1-5 (above) says that there were other ages. But the bible seems to specify what looks obvious to me as three distinct ages: (1) the age of Adam and Eve (age of innocence); (2) Age of Looking forward to Christ (after the fall until the Crucifixion); (3) Finally, the Age of Looking back to what Christ did (Crucifixion until Now).

Please note that it is I that am suggesting these three ages. The problem in my mind now appears to be that in my mind and biblically speaking, there are only these three ages, so now I ask; what about all the previous ages (great years with their empires) that we know about and also new ones to come? I can understand future great years, but what about past?

To speculate, as far as previous ages go, before Adam and Eve that is, I noticed that Ephesians 3: 1-5 shown above states that Christ was not known unto the “Sons of Men”. Is it possible that pre Adam and Eve Men were not the sons of God, but instead the “Sons of Men”? Does this in fact not remind us of Genesis mention of the Nephilim, and makes reference to the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" introduced in Genesis 6? Does it remind us of the slave animals of Zecharia Sitchin writings?

Needless to say, I think we have seen proof that these ancient people (previous great years), had godly souls based on much more than I care to try to elaborate?
So where does that leave us? What is the next question to ask? Can “Sons of Men” build great cities and empires?

Thanks for sharing your ideas and teachings.


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:25 am 
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Here's another age comment. This one is from Jesus:

Matthew 28:20 (NKJV) "...I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:32 am 
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The problem in my mind now appears to be that in my mind and biblically speaking, there are only these three ages, so now I ask; what about all the previous ages (great years with their empires) that we know about and also new ones to come? I can understand future great years, but what about past?

The bible is covering three ages, while foreshadowing a fourth. You are correct in the sense of identifying the three biblical ages in the above verses which translate to your Age of Adam = "Taurus", your Age of looking forward to Christ = "Aries", and your Age of looking back at Christ = "Pisces", the current World Age. What you've missed in your biblical search is the foreshadowing of the "Age to Come" (search engine all verses which speak of the age to come). This fits into the second coming and New Jerusalem motif, which is yet to come.

So there are three world ages mentioned in the bible with a foreshadowing of the "Age to Come". So a total of four world ages mentioned altogether comes out to the mention of 1/3 of the total 12 Great Year Ages (1/3 being mentioned in Revelation, a book which is clearly about the Great Year as it spells it out with the 12 jewels given as the zodiac in reverse order). In short, the bible is covering the lower region of one Great Year cycle covering the world falling down to it's lowest point through the ages of Taurus and Aries, and then changing direction and rising back up again through the ages of Pisces and Aquarius, which are the looking back at Christ and New Jerusalem ages - to put it in a way that you might better understand. The conclusion is that the biblical writers were modeling the lowest point of the earth's precession which represents falling into a time of darkness and then rising back out of it again according to the old Vedic and Greek models and likely known to the Egyptians as well. But the bible writers purpose was to focus on the lower 1/3 ages of the Great Year, not the entire cycle. Obviously, beyond the New Jerusalem motif the earth is still here, made anew, and life continues on towards the Silver and Golden Ages. The precession of the equinoxes roles on...

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:41 am 
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As part of the fall to the iron age of ignorance of God, the Bible developed a theory of salvation that contained a basic error, the separation of God from nature. This error has been compounded as a dogmatic amnesia propagated by the church regarding the true relation between humanity and the cosmos. The ancient perennial wisdom of 'as above so below' was understood among the authors of the Bible, and widely in the ancient world from India to Egypt and Rome, but was excluded from the public faith because it seemed too problematic for the mobilisation of a mass movement based on the myth of an incarnate messiah. Hence when we read what Jesus says we should interpret it against the perennial philosophy, the eternal return of the Great Year, to unlock the precessional code of the Bible. Many such meanings are hidden, such as the equation between the River of Life and the Milky Way, between the Tree of Life and the zodiac, between the Holy City and the Great Year, and between the loaves and fishes and the Virgo-Pisces axis of precession, but are obvious and simple once studied against the premise that the heavens are heaven. As John Michel has argued in The City of Revelation, such eternal ideas only come into human focus around the start and end of each age of the zodiac, and their real meaning has been systematically concealed since they were formulated in ancient times. We are now entering a time when systematic understanding of precession and theology will be reunited.

I've been thinking further about the 666 in Revelation. A thought I would like to throw into the mix is the observation that 6x6x6 = 216. As Joseph Campbell notes, there were conventionally thought to be 2160 years in a zodiacal age, and this number 2160 and its double 4320 feature in the Vedas and possibly in Genesis. (The actual number of years in an age, measured against the astronomy of the earth's spin wobble, is ~2148 years, one twelfth of the Great Year period of precession of the equinox against the stars). Now, if we push this analogy by postulating that the human number 666 is 6x6x6, then we find the period of the age embedded in the myth of the beast of the apocalypse. The implication is that the Biblical description of the beast is, at one level, talking about the 2160 years of the Age of Pisces as an age of delusory belief, in which 'only those who have the mark of the beast can buy and sell'. The next step is to see the 666 text as pointing to a critique of Piscean theology, with the argument that an entire age after Jesus will be deluded, and only with the Age of Aquarius will we start to put theological understanding back on a real foundation in nature. Michel speculates that the 666 is about the human desire for control. We can see this working out today with the clash between the paradigms of working with nature and control of nature. Control of nature is unsustainable, but is grounded in the Genesis myth of dominion and remains the dominant ideology of the Age of Pisces. With Einstein and Spinoza, we need to see God as nature, so we can align ourselves to the reality which gives us life.

Looking for discussion of these themes, one interesting site is http://www.carnaval.com/432/


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:52 pm 
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It's possible that the original intent of the writer's was to take the fallen nature theology, first coming from Zoroastrianism, and apply it Judaism. But one must wonder whether the priests starting the fallen nature theology in Zoroastrianism ever meant for it to be taken literally in the first place, when they were merely formatting a fallen nature motif around the cosmic fall season lore of the Great Year. And it would seem that the original Jewish priests applying this previously Zoroastrian fallen nature theology to Judaism must have understood what they were doing as they were applying it to their religious practice as well. The structure of Israel into 12 tribes shows a very intentional case of the priests using the "as above so below" theme to their society. It seems to be those coming along years and years and generation after generation later who were reading these astrotheological allegories "literally" who were in error. And then the error ran right on through the generations of Jewish orthodoxy during the end of the age of Aries right down to the Christian era, where a correction oriented attempt was made at the beginning of the new Great Year in Pisces (the astrotheological Christianity), only to be curbed and subdued once again by a new orthodox movement arising from within Christianity which brought back the very same "literalistic" problem that had been a point of contention against the Jewish orthodoxy previously. It came right back again. The Jews taking these myths allegorically - who were the early Christians - were essentially correct in their interpretation of OT symbolism. But they were fought against and eventually trampled over by the "literalizing" orthodox movements which came later during the second and third centuries and beyond. They eventually became dominant and did away with those who opposed the "literalizing" movement.

But isn't that consistent with the cosmic fall season of astrological lore any ways? The fall of the Great Year is a fall into materialism and small minded perspectives of the world and spirituality. Taking the allegories "literally", is precisely a small minded and materialistic oriented perspective. The deeper meaning of the myths is "symbolized" by the surface storyline. So basically as the earth was falling down precessionally through the ages of Taurus and Aries the old astrotheological religion was slowly misunderstood by later generations of priests in Judaism. It didn't die out in all cases because it was preserved within the ranks of the pagan mystery schools around the region, which Hellenizing Jews were joining before and during the common era, especially as concerns the Antioch / Alexandrian connection of Christian origins. If we look at it from the perspective of an old astrotheological "symbolic" religion turned "literal" as the precession was in decline, followed by a publically announced calling back to the ancient astrotheological religion at the beginning of the Great Year (early Christianity), followed by a newer literalistic based tradition like the Jewish literalistic tradition emerging over a century into the new Great Year which was set on putting the ancient astrotheological religion back into secrecy once again (orthodox Christianity), then we should expect to see yet another movement arise aimed at bringing out the ancient astrotheological religion into public domain once again as we near the end of the current age, which the writers described as the age of come (the age of Aquarius / Water bearer Luke 22:10). Perhaps the orthodoxy sought to put the ancient astrotheological religion back into secrecy because astrologically speaking the bottom point of the materialistic dominated "Iron Age" wouldn't take place until around 500 CE, and they could loosely deduce that much based on their predicting abilities. The emphasis on the "second coming" motif aimed at "the end of the age" could well be meant to say - in a round about way and to those capable of understanding the ancient astrotheological religion and it's symbolism - 'the astrotheological information was let out too early by those releasing it right after the beginning of the current age, so we're going to hide it away again by clothing it in "literalism" for a while longer until after the Iron Age has bottomed out and the Bronze Age is well under way'. The stellar movement won't actually reverse in direction until the maximum on the meridian is reached during the age of Aquarius, a delayed reaction compared to the zodiacal Great Year starting in Pisces. The real abrupt shifting of direction in the sky above which is time delayed by one full world age, should then reflect an abrupt shifting going on above below on the earth, to an astronomer priest using precession to try and forecast the future state of the world in ages to come. It seems that the astrotheological source code for interpreting the bible is consciously meant to be clothed in a great confusion (Babylon) right up until the end of the current age, when, coincidentally, the narritve places the final destruction of "Babylon the Great". Probably one of the greatest confusions in the world at present is the "literal" interpretation of "symbolic" astrotheological religious imagery and we know that all too well.

That's why I'm hammering Stahrwe so hard on the YEC topic and elsewhere at booktalk. In time I expect to have Genesis 1 so thoroughly exposed as non-literal that no apologist in world will be able to withstand the scrutiny they'll receive by all those who learn how to use the bible itself to prove that the bible was not originally written to be taken concretely "literal" in first place, as of the very first book of the bible. The entire effort hinges on the literalism of Genesis 1:1.

In the multi-level universe of the bible and other mythologies of the region, the "Shamayim" (heaven / sky) which is created in Genesis 1:1 is clearly not the firmament region below the highest heaven and above the earth. It's the state of the sky (shamayim) before the middle firmament is separated from the waters which doesn't happen until the second day of creation. And then the sun, moon, and stars aren't made and set in the firmament region until the fourth day of creation. The sky is created in verse 1, it's separated into a firmament on day 2, and on day four the sun, moon, and stars are made in the firmament region of the heavens (shamayim). And so the first three days of creation can not be suggested to be "literal" 24 hour days marked by the existence of a "literal" sun which YEC apologists would like to claim was created when the "shamayim" and earth were created in the first verse of Genesis. The text isn't even written to relay "literal" 24 hour days to begin with! They're using a tricky move by trying to assert that the sun, moon, and stars were created in verse 1 along with the "shamayim", but it's an errant interpretation of the bible and can be proven errant by simply putting the story into context. This could potentially become the straw that breaks the camels back at some point down the road, from what I'm seeing. And when these "literalistic" apologists have no choice but to admit that the first day of creation in Genesis is not a "literal" 24 hour day governed and marked by the "literal" sun, a domino effect runs right on down the line of the creation account thereafter.

They're "literalistic" approach to the bible has indeed been built up from a sand foundation, as we've discussed many times. The whole orthodox structure, as high as it's been built up over the years, comes crashing down to the ground when the tide ("the torrent") comes in at the end of the age. This could very well be the beginning of the final destruction of the metaphorical "Babylon the Great" disclosed by the mystical and allegorical writer(s) of Revelation, permitting that they were trying to pass along a reference to the final collapse of the "literalistic" interpretation of mythological religious "symbolism" which 'confuses and confounds' the religious metaphors and allegories contained therein. The early mystics of the first century (especially the writer(s) of Revelation using a variety of Gnostic "symbolism") would have viewed the collapse of public "literalism" ("Babylon the Great") as a great triumph over the "Iron Age" of ignorance and all of the political based religious corruption which had been established on "literalistic" foundations over the years. I'll be busy dabating the "literalism" of Genesis 1:1 until I get the result that I'm looking for. I have to put down every semantic game the apologists can throw at me by exposing their error. Feel free to join in because I've started a new thread at the bible and christianity section.

http://www.booktalk.org/post67277.html#p67277

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:46 pm 
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To continue my thoughts, I’m going to take a wild stretch and use the “Strong’s Dictionary” on line to show word by word, that this verse for Ephesians 3:11 which says:

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

And that it can be loosley translated using Strong’s dictionary to mean something like:

According to the ZODIAC AGE which he Purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

Here is the link to Strong’s for Ephesians chapter 3 that you can open while we proceed.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... 49C003.htm

Again, we are working with verse 11.

In my earlier post I used this chapter of Ephesians to show that there is/was a mystery not known to the sons of men (not sons of god giants) of other ages (probably past ages rather than future), thereby attempting to imply that there were men that existed on Earth previous to Adam and Eve that were not privy to a particular mystery (that of Christ) that the author(s) of Ephesians 3 wrote about.

Next we can consider that in John 3:16 where it says “shall have everlasting life” that the word everlasting in Greek is Aionios (probably meaning all ages) but the word eternal in the verse we are working with has the meaning Aion or age. So we can now further translate the above scripture to say:

According to the AGE purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

Next at the Strong’s site (use the link above if you wish to concur), I clicked on the linked word “Purpose” shown in the verse and Strong’s gave the following Greek meaning:

from - protithemai 4388; a setting forth, i.e. (figuratively) proposal (intention); specially, the show-bread (in the Temple) as exposed before God:--purpose, shew(-bread).

Then not knowing why the word “showbread” or “shew(-bread) was being used I did a wiki lookup and found the following paragraph for wiki’s description of “showbread” from this that was perhaps stated by the historian Josephus:

Like the biblical shewbread, the Babylonians and Assyrians generally laid twelve cakes/loaves, or an integer multiple of twelve cakes/loaves, on tables in front of images of their deities;[1][19] the number twelve, which is so prominent in the showbread rite, has always borne mysterious religious significance,[1] and with the Assyrian practice of laying out twelve cakes/loaves, was directly connected with the Zodiac.[19] The Babylonian cakes/bread were also required to be sweet (i.e. unleavened), and like the biblical shewbread were baked from wheat flour.[1]

Source for above found at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showbread in third paragraph under the heading “Origin”

I really wasn’t expecting to run into something about the Zodiac and I suppose something that was stated by Flavius Josephus, and according to one source, I can’t name, Josephus himself stated that the twelve loaves of showbread in the temple was a reference to the zodiac.

So now I’ll change the verse to read:

According to the AGE ZODIAC which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

Next I’ll turn it around to make more sense:

According to the ZODIAC AGE which he Purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

To conclude:
From Mathew 26:39 “Let this cup pass from me…” we see that Cup can mean fate.

Strong’s description for cup:

neuter of a derivative of the alternate of - pino 4095; a drinking-vessel; by extension, the contents thereof, i.e. a cupful (draught); figuratively, a lot or fate:--cup.

Would have Christ Himself known about His Astor-theological fate?

I will now really go out on a limb here by saying that perhaps these suppositions can be further illustrated by the bible story of Noah. That during the times of Noah, all flesh, including animal was corrupt: Genesis 6 verse 7:

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The fact that even the flesh of animals was corrupt can be seen by looking back about 10 thousand years to now extinct giant beasts of the ice age. Nephilim type beasts like the huge bears, 8 foot rodent beavers, the hybrid crossed stag moose which looked like a cross between an Elk and a Moose and even mythological men of renown known as the Greek gods of Archetype.

See link for “Ice age animals”:
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ ... mals.html#
See giant Beaver
http://nature.ca/notebooks/english/giantbev.htm

And further that a sudden ice age was the after effect of the great deluge and that’s why some say that great mammoths have been found, frozen, with undigested butter cups in their stomachs. Even the Zodiac contains mythological hybrids, but trust me, I can imagine Noah’s Ark frozen in the ice.

I therefore conclude, in my mind, that the infinity of great years populated with great civilizations, perhaps before the time of Adam, will not too much obstruct my view of the bible. I also concede that I know very little about language, history, archeology, scripture, and biology. However, I now believe that God choose one astor-theological great year for the age of Christ.

Good grief this is clumsy!


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 11:44 am 
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I predicted there could be a major event that would happen around May 27th. If the oil 'top kill' works it will be a fairly significant event and it happened fairly close to that date.

Here is what I told you:

.... Watch for the 27th day of May, 2010 when Uranus briefly touches into Aries (out of Pisces) for clues to what to expect. And then after a few days it will retrograde back into Pisces until the ides of March 2011 when it will stay there in Aries (war). This years touch and go may give us some clues or set the whole thing in motion. Aries is action and war and again Uranus is the mass and freedom. ....

Well it looks like with this mess, we're going to need Obama's health care system to care for all the sick people. It was the independent high-tech action of the foolhardy, no rules rebels of BP, that against unpredictable odds, came through with the foolhardy break-through that were so desperately needed. Pisces ruled by Neptune rules the Oceans and with Uranus of Greek mythology discussed below, I pray for their success.

After Uranus of Greek Pantheon had been castrated, his blood fell to earth (Gaia) and conceived the Giants. These were of monstrous appearance and had great strength (Cyclopes-(one eye)). Similiarly, in some versions Aphrodite is believed to have risen from the foam created by the sex organs of Uranus after they were thrown into the sea by his son Cronus.

Note that balls are being thrown into the sea to plug the hole:
and when Cronus (Roman Saturn) threw the severed genitals into the sea a white foam appeared. From this foam Aphrodite the goddess of love and desire was born.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/u/uranus.html

Cronus was the youngest of the first generation of Titans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus

Notice this article where BP, Transocean, and Halliburton are referred to as Titans:
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-05-14- ... -oil-spill

Aphrodite was loved by many mortals, one of which was Adonis.

Her attributes are a.o. the dolphin, the dove, the swan, the pomegranate and the lime tree.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/aphrodite.html

And so on......


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 6:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
It's possible that the original intent of the writer's was to take the fallen nature theology, first coming from Zoroastrianism, and apply it Judaism. But one must wonder whether the priests starting the fallen nature theology in Zoroastrianism ever meant for it to be taken literally in the first place, when they were merely formatting a fallen nature motif around the cosmic fall season lore of the Great Year.
On the source of ancient wisdom about the myth of the fall from grace, we can’t know how far the Vedic lore of the Great Year as matching the Yuga cycle of divine knowledge and ignorance preceded the development of Zoroastrian thought about it. A possibility here is that the growth of agriculture, enabling the emergence of a warrior caste and a priest caste, caused the loss of attunement to the cosmos that had been assumed in hunter-gatherer society, and this falling out of a natural sense of divinity resulted in the narrative myth of the fall. The lack of written records, and the strong efforts by priests to eradicate knowledge of earlier views, means all this is speculative. Even so, this historical speculation is a reasonable way to explore what the old myths might really mean. We can certainly dismiss literal readings of books such as Genesis as representing ignorant corruption of an earlier allegory, an ignorance that continues in modern creationism. The real question is how we find meaning in the allegory. The whole debate about matrifocal ancient societies as representing a Golden Age can be framed against the Yuga cycle of the Great Year. The cycle of the zodiac invites the idea of sexual balance in the Golden Age, around ten thousand years ago.
Quote:
And it would seem that the original Jewish priests applying this previously Zoroastrian fallen nature theology to Judaism must have understood what they were doing as they were applying it to their religious practice as well. The structure of Israel into 12 tribes shows a very intentional case of the priests using the "as above so below" theme to their society.
Jewish theology looks like a fragmented remnant of an older coherent Vedic wisdom. The story of Moses and Monotheism had lost the thread of the oral tradition where the cycle of the zodiac was understood much more clearly. The idea of Abraham and Sarah as representing Brahma and Sarasvati indicates the start of the fragmentation. It is possible that the twelve tribes were a remnant of an Indian natural theology, but one that had already lost its roots in nature.
Quote:
It seems to be those coming along years and years and generation after generation later who were reading these astrotheological allegories "literally" who were in error.
Again, we should ask where the loss of moorings involved in the fall began. The migration of the Jewish people from the Sarasvati River following the change of course of the river in 1900 BC looks like a major turning point, whose history has largely been lost, remembered in the myth of Abraham and Sarah in the oral tradition of Israel. Who knows, maybe the Biblical story of the Exodus from Egypt mixes in older stories about an actual Exodus from India? Literal readings of myth are always in error, because we know that the supernatural fantasy is scientifically untrue. Such readings only ever arise as a folk distortion of an original truth.
Quote:
And then the error ran right on through the generations of Jewish orthodoxy during the end of the age of Aries right down to the Christian era, where a correction oriented attempt was made at the beginning of the new Great Year in Pisces (the astrotheological Christianity), only to be curbed and subdued once again by a new orthodox movement arising from within Christianity which brought back the very same "literalistic" problem that had been a point of contention against the Jewish orthodoxy previously.It came right back again. The Jews taking these myths allegorically - who were the early Christians - were essentially correct in their interpretation of OT symbolism. But they were fought against and eventually trampled over by the "literalizing" orthodox movements which came later during the second and third centuries and beyond. They eventually became dominant and did away with those who opposed the "literalizing" movement.
This is a very insightful and persuasive description of the social context of early Christianity. An esoteric tradition had understood that discussion about heaven and God was really about the cosmos. This mystery tradition was not capable of delivering a convincing popular narrative against the political upheavals of war and migration. A literalist corruption of the stellar truth gained acceptance, but never wiped out the natural vision upon which it was really based. The allegorical wisdom in the New Testament saw the unfolding of the Great Year as the real context for human spiritual evolution, but this slow natural story confronted a literal monotheism that was very aggressive in its dogmatism, so the truth could only be transmitted as code. We are now looking at explaining this code as we move towards another cusp of the Zodiacal Ages, from the 2012 emergence of the solstice on the upside of the Milky Way through to the next staging points in 2060 and 2148.
Quote:
But isn't that consistent with the cosmic fall season of astrological lore any ways? The fall of the Great Year is a fall into materialism and small minded perspectives of the world and spirituality. Taking the allegories "literally", is precisely a small minded and materialistic oriented perspective.
The supreme irony here is that the fallen spirituality of orthodoxy is based on the central claim that God and Christ are entities, so all the huffing about a ‘supernatural’ being conceals a materialistic assumption. Orthodox religious cosmology is actually a false materialised version of the cosmic truth, turning the eternal mystery into an idol. Once we say God is an entity, we have committed the basic error of seeing divinity by analogy to matter. When we fail to see eternity as the total unity of space-time, we lose sight of the emergent complexity of the cycles of nature.
Quote:
The deeper meaning of the myths is "symbolized" by the surface storyline. So basically as the earth was falling down precessionally through the ages of Taurus and Aries the old astrotheological religion was slowly misunderstood by later generations of priests in Judaism.
The myths of Adam (Taurus=have), Moses (Aries=am) and Jesus (Pisces=believe) fit precisely into the precessional time line. But the ability to understand this correlation between earth and the heavens became steadily more distant from the fallen materialist mentality of mass opinion. Plato grasped fragments of the perennial wisdom with his myth of the clash of gods and giants in the Sophist, and his intimations of the Great Year in the Timaeus.
Quote:
It didn't die out in all cases because it was preserved within the ranks of the pagan mystery schools around the region, which Hellenizing Jews were joining before and during the common era, especially as concerns the Antioch / Alexandrian connection of Christian origins. If we look at it from the perspective of an old astrotheological "symbolic" religion turned "literal" as the precession was in decline, followed by a publically announced calling back to the ancient astrotheological religion at the beginning of the Great Year (early Christianity), followed by a newer literalistic based tradition like the Jewish literalistic tradition emerging over a century into the new Great Year which was set on putting the ancient astrotheological religion back into secrecy once again (orthodox Christianity), then we should expect to see yet another movement arise aimed at bringing out the ancient astrotheological religion into public domain once again as we near the end of the current age, which the writers described as the age of come (the age of Aquarius / Water bearer Luke 22:10).
Christianity announced the stellar framework of time and eternity, but in a form that could also be read literally, for popular mass exoteric consumption. As you know, I have seen the loaves and fishes as the most vivid example of this dual esoteric and exoteric meaning within a story. Esoterically, we have Pisces and Virgo lining up as the Easter Sun and Moon to symbolise cosmic abundance in the New Age. Exoterically, this got dumbed down for the general public to a supernatural miracle, an impossible story that shows Jesus is the messiah because he can do magic tricks, a slightly more competent Bullwinkle. Jesus as parlour conjurer became the symbol of dogmatic faith, and the cosmic reality became anathema.
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Perhaps the orthodoxy sought to put the ancient astrotheological religion back into secrecy because astrologically speaking the bottom point of the materialistic dominated "Iron Age" wouldn't take place until around 500 CE, and they could loosely deduce that much based on their predicting abilities.
I suspect the orthodoxy honestly saw their magical dogma as the only ethical stance. Unity of the faith required a lowest common denominator. Gnosticism had to be eliminated because it required intellectual ability above the level of the ignorant masses. I don’t think the orthodox knew they represented the fallen vision of ignorance, because the worst ignorance is the fanaticism that imagines it is wisdom. It is rather like the blood-dimmed tide described by Yeats in his poem The Second Coming, where the best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity.
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The emphasis on the "second coming" motif aimed at "the end of the age" could well be meant to say - in a round about way and to those capable of understanding the ancient astrotheological religion and it's symbolism - 'the astrotheological information was let out too early by those releasing it right after the beginning of the current age, so we're going to hide it away again by clothing it in "literalism" for a while longer until after the Iron Age has bottomed out and the Bronze Age is well under way'.
Against the motif of the Great Year, we have the themes of the Ages as Taurus “I have”, Aries “I am”, Pisces “I believe” and Aquarius “I know”. The zeitgeist of Pisces is about belief rather than knowledge. Understanding the Great Year requires knowledge rather than belief, so is ruled out from within the Piscean zeitgeist, and is literally ahead of its time. The turning point of time, the Great Year cusp of Aries-Pisces, is the alpha-omega moment when the avatar of the Golden Age appears in the Iron Age as Jesus Christ the eternal messiah. The iron age context of ignorance means the only possible response is denial and rejection through the cross. The eternal power of the Golden Age means ignorance cannot triumph, hence the resurrection. This cosmic story means that if Jesus did not exist it was necessary to invent him, as Voltaire said of God, and as appears historically the most likely explanation for the Gospel narrative.
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The stellar movement won't actually reverse in direction until the maximum on the meridian is reached during the age of Aquarius, a delayed reaction compared to the zodiacal Great Year starting in Pisces. The real abrupt shifting of direction in the sky above which is time delayed by one full world age, should then reflect an abrupt shifting going on above below on the earth, to an astronomer priest using precession to try and forecast the future state of the world in ages to come. It seems that the astrotheological source code for interpreting the bible is consciously meant to be clothed in a great confusion (Babylon) right up until the end of the current age, when, coincidentally, the narritve places the final destruction of "Babylon the Great". Probably one of the greatest confusions in the world at present is the "literal" interpretation of "symbolic" astrotheological religious imagery and we know that all too well.
My view is that the cultural reverse towards cosmic vision is marked by the Pisces-Aquarius cusp. This cusp may result from a cumulative shift of world consciousness past a tipping point, impelled by a series of events.
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"literalistic" approach to the bible has indeed been built up from a sand foundation, as we've discussed many times. The whole orthodox structure, as high as it's been built up over the years, comes crashing down to the ground when the tide ("the torrent") comes in at the end of the age. This could very well be the beginning of the final destruction of the metaphorical "Babylon the Great" disclosed by the mystical and allegorical writer(s) of Revelation, permitting that they were trying to pass along a reference to the final collapse of the "literalistic" interpretation of mythological religious "symbolism" which 'confuses and confounds' the religious metaphors and allegories contained therein. The early mystics of the first century (especially the writer(s) of Revelation using a variety of Gnostic "symbolism") would have viewed the collapse of public "literalism" ("Babylon the Great") as a great triumph over the "Iron Age" of ignorance and all of the political based religious corruption which had been established on "literalistic" foundations over the years. I'll be busy debating the "literalism" of Genesis 1:1 until I get the result that I'm looking for.
The discussion at Booktalk illustrates the unscrupulous bone-headed nature of fundamentalism. Logic is irrelevant to the emotional commitment of faith. My view has always been that science provides a compelling and true explanation of reality, and anti-scientific views should not be dignified as potentially credible by engaging with their internal logic.
zekeman wrote:
.... Watch for the 27th day of May, 2010 when Uranus briefly touches into Aries
Hi Zeke, some commentary is at http://www.cosmicintelligenceagency.com ... nusingress Uranus last crossed the March equinox point, moving from the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere, about 84 years ago. Symbol of innovation and change, Uranus now stands precisely on the equinoctial precessional point in late sidereal Pisces where the zodiac meets the celestial equator, in a grand cross with Jupiter, Pluto, Saturn and (soon) the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars, at the four cardinal points of the zodiac. These four cardinal points were regarded in ancient times as marking the gates of heaven, when they sat at the four points where the zodiac is closest to and most distant from the Milky Way, celebrated in the Apocalypse symbols of the four creatures around the throne of God. All the planets except Neptune are hitting these four points. Neptune also enters the picture with its ingress into Pisces next April.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:39 am 
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Robert Tulip wrote:
Christianity announced the stellar framework of time and eternity, but in a form that could also be read literally, for popular mass exoteric consumption. As you know, I have seen the loaves and fishes as the most vivid example of this dual esoteric and exoteric meaning within a story. Esoterically, we have Pisces and Virgo lining up as the Easter Sun and Moon to symbolise cosmic abundance in the New Age. Exoterically, this got dumbed down for the general public to a supernatural miracle, an impossible story that shows Jesus is the messiah because he can do magic tricks, a slightly more competent Bullwinkle. Jesus as parlour conjurer became the symbol of dogmatic faith, and the cosmic reality became anathema.

It's too bad that more people don't understand this! The allegory did get dumbed down for the public to a supernatural miracle and the cosmic message remains unseen even though it's right in front of everyone's face. This is what I mean about Babylon falling. Once the esoteric is revealed the exoteric just sort of falls off. It becomes obvious that the exoteric is merely a confusion oriented interpretation of cosmic symbolism about the earths journey through time. You want to talk about a wide spread "gnashing of teeth", that's exactly what we're looking at here. I remember believing that Jesus really sat there and fed a multitude of people proving to everyone that he was the messiah. If I still believed that and then suddenly had the actual esoteric meaning of the symbolism revealed to me abruptly I would be "gnashing teeth" for sure. But fortunately I had long since realized that the story line is mythical before I ever learned about the full depth of the astrotheological aspect of the myth. So I wasn't surprised at all to discover the esoteric astrotheological meaning because it made perfect sense by the time I discovered it.

Through Joseph Campbell's works I had come to realize that the story of Jesus closely models the life of the Buddha and that it's just another version of "The Hero's Journey" mythology long before I understood the astrotheology emphasized by the mythicist writers of comparative mythology and religion. Campbell was an evemerist concerning the life of Jesus but a mythicist concerning the Buddha's. So my realizations came at me in layers - one step at a time - and I eventually went beyond Campbell and figured that both the life of the Buddha and Jesus are mythical through and through. That's when I started finding Acharya's work. It came as the next step offering more depth to what I had already just began to suspect on my own. The 12 tribes, 12 brothers of Joseph, and 12 apostles of Jesus make perfect sense when understanding the esoteric, but for a zealous believer in the exoteric readings of the orthodoxy an abrupt revelation of the esoteric meanings amounts to a major "gnashing of teeth" and a great Babylon of confusion comes crashing down upon realization. It's obvious that the writers of revelation were speaking in the language of esoteric symbolism, so esoteric symbolism isn't very likely to be what they have crashing down with their Great Babylon symbolism. That leaves only the exoteric to come crashing down at the end of the age. The merchants of the world mourn the loss of the exoteric because that's where all of the money has been throughout the current age. Literalistic intepretation has been big, big business during the age of Pisces. The esoteric has not. The exoteric represents the majority during the age of Pisces, the esoteric does not. The evil is portrayed as the majority status money maker which the kings of the world have gotten rich off of and will therefore mourn the loss thereof at the end of the age of Pisces. The exoteric fits that description much more closely then the esoteric. The masses have been hearded around like sheep according to the exoteric interpretation of the mythological symbolism of the bible. Campbell warned about the folly of exoteric interpretation over esoteric interpretation in "Thou Art That: transforming religious metaphor" and just about every other book as well. So I've seen this implication coming for a long time now. It's often difficult to convey to others...

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Hey Rocky, watch me pull 25,765 loaves and fishes outta this hat! (pulls out bull, lion, scorpion and man) gonnahafta get a new hat...


Tat, your description of the Gospel as providing 'cosmic symbolism about the earth's journey through time' is exactly true. The enlightened ancients sought to explain reality through the Bible. Their explanation was altered and concealed, but not removed, by lesser minds who did not understand the astronomy.

The confusion we face is how to respond to this understanding. Many within the mythicist camp see Christianity as irredeemably compromised by its capture by dogmatic fantasy. There is a sense of pain and betrayal about being lied to on such a large scale. Psychologically, the quest for wholeness of the self asks where we can find integrity of vision. Sweeping away the heritage of falsehood seems to show a path to restore a lost rationality. The challenge, though, is to work through the mythicist antithesis to establish a new higher synthesis, incorporating the truth in the Christian thesis together with the critique to find a true path of evolution of the soul.

Carl Jung, in Aion, describes Christ as the archetype of the self, understood in terms of psychology rather than metaphysics. Analysis of dogmatic faith in terms of depth psychology, set within a cosmic frame as in Aion, provides a path to open up discussion of precession as the explanatory framework for Christianity. Like the Ouroboros, the mythical snake swallowing its own tail, Jung joins together the two ends of human spirituality, claiming to be totally scientific and atheist in his method while also claiming to know that God exists. Such a synthetic paradox casts Jungian vision into the outer darkness with Christ, but opens a basis for conversation.

One story in Aion that I really liked was about how the four sons of Horus match the four creatures of Ezekiel and Revelation and the symbols of the Evangelists as the four corners of the cosmos in Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. Here we see the Biblical cosmology firmly grounded in Egyptian myth in the Canopic ritual. As with the twelve tribes of Israel, the entire cosmology rests within the eternal sense of place and time provided by the zodiac.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Robert Tulip wrote:

Tat, your description of the Gospel as providing 'cosmic symbolism about the earth's journey through time' is exactly true. The enlightened ancients sought to explain reality through the Bible. Their explanation was altered and concealed, but not removed, by lesser minds who did not understand the astronomy.

I think you will enjoy the new MP that will be coming soon to youtube. It will start off by outlining the history and antiquity of astronomical observation by humans. The point is proven by the existence of the ancient megalithic sites. The fact that astronomical observation had passed down from deep antiquity into the Hebrew and Christian era's is simple and obvious. Let's hope that more and more people will start realizing just how obvious it actually is.
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The confusion we face is how to respond to this understanding. Many within the mythicist camp see Christianity as irredeemably compromised by its capture by dogmatic fantasy. There is a sense of pain and betrayal about being lied to on such a large scale. Psychologically, the quest for wholeness of the self asks where we can find integrity of vision. Sweeping away the heritage of falsehood seems to show a path to restore a lost rationality. The challenge, though, is to work through the mythicist antithesis to establish a new higher synthesis, incorporating the truth in the Christian thesis together with the critique to find a true path of evolution of the soul.

The MP emphasizes that the astronomical observation of antiquity represents some of the greatest achievements in human history. That is a part of the new video presentation. I think that you'll find that in time Christianity will be viewed as the case of some of this ancient astronomical observation passing down over the generations and then falling into the hands of a corruption oriented political force set on using the ancient symbolism to their own personal advantages. This required using mystery symbolism and making the people think that the mysteries had been revealed to them, when in reality the mysteries remained locked away. They were given the mystery of the Virgin Birth and told that the revelation of this ancient mystery involved a literal virgin girl giving birth to a God-Man, and so the astronomical mystery remained hidden from the minds of the masses even though they thought that the mystery had been revealed to them. It may be that the leaders themselves had no idea what the mystery of the Virgin actually meant, but that's very unlikely. They actually went to great lengths to censor this ancient mystery from the historical records and Acharya exposed one such occurrence in CiE dealing with the mystery of Kore and Aion which had been intentionally censored out of English translations. There was intent in this censorship of the ancient mysteries from the masses.
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Carl Jung, in Aion, describes Christ as the archetype of the self, understood in terms of psychology rather than metaphysics. Analysis of dogmatic faith in terms of depth psychology, set within a cosmic frame as in Aion, provides a path to open up discussion of precession as the explanatory framework for Christianity. Like the Ouroboros, the mythical snake swallowing its own tail, Jung joins together the two ends of human spirituality, claiming to be totally scientific and atheist in his method while also claiming to know that God exists. Such a synthetic paradox casts Jungian vision into the outer darkness with Christ, but opens a basis for conversation.

It's funny that you brought up the Ouroboros because I was born in the year of the dragon and I've been leaning towards a shoulder tattoo of certain type of Asian dragon biting it's tail. On the opposite shoulder I have plans for a counter clockwise zodiac set to precession. I intend to wear all of it with pride and describe the meaning to those who inquire about it. It will be a good conversation starter to say the least. :lol:
Quote:
One story in Aion that I really liked was about how the four sons of Horus match the four creatures of Ezekiel and Revelation and the symbols of the Evangelists as the four corners of the cosmos in Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. Here we see the Biblical cosmology firmly grounded in Egyptian myth in the Canopic ritual. As with the twelve tribes of Israel, the entire cosmology rests within the eternal sense of place and time provided by the zodiac.

This spilled over into Campbell's work along with much of Jungs work. This captures the second function of mythology, the cosmological function, which is to provide and image of the universe and to see past the images to the eternal mystery which transcends all images. When you can manage to see the radiance of eternity in all of the forms and images of time the world has ended as you once viewed it. I can follow all of the deep mysticism of these allegories from the MP without missing a beat. The precession is being used in a way which is supposed to open up an individual to seeing the radiance of eternity through this cyclic vision. Jung and Campbell were pushing this greater realization.

And as for God, it is possible to be atheist and yet know that God exists. It's not a paradox once God is understood as "a metaphor for a mystery that transcends all thought." I know that the mystery exists because existence itself is grounded in deep mystery. That's where knowing that God (the mystery of existence) exists comes into play. The mystery of existence itself, that the God symbolism represents, does actually exist. We have no way of knowing why existence is even here in the first place. It remains forever unknown, transcending all thought and conceptualization. Jung had zeroed in on this great mystery and Campbell did likewise. This is also very difficult to convey to others, especially those who insist on giving God traits. It points to beyond deity, beyond even consciousness, beyond any type of energy or force. It's just the mystery factor involved with contemplating mere existence (I tried explaining this at book talk on the pantheism thread). And so one is an atheist in one sense - lacking belief in personified deities - and yet theistic in terms of having belief in the mystery of existence which the God symbolism is meant to convey in the very deepest sense. This realization doesn't come easy, and so we find all of these myths and rites that can help one achieve such a realization. This is also why it is so greatly dumbed down for the masses...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Here is the original post from the Joseph Campbell foundation that really caught my attention and brought me to the realization that Campbell had been trying to convey about the God metaphor. The poster is named "Ruiz" and he was defending Dawkins "The God Delusion" on the grounds that many spiritual people are in fact "deluded" because they get stuck mistaking the symbolism for the final reference. This post was a scolding of the administrator of jcf.org for getting stuck on the symbolism of consciousness and thinking that it's the final reference of the God symbolism. I added the "one and many" parts for clarification:
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"According to the essay, your description regarding “consciousness” is not the 'metaphysical insight' but it's 'vehicle'. The metaphysical insight is the one I stated above regarding the One and the Multiple.

Let me explain:

Here is the formula used by Joseph Campbell for interpreting Mythic images and philosophies that are alluding to a ‘metaphysical insight’.

Formula: the relationship of (a) to (b) perfectly resembles that of (c) to (x), where (x) represents a quantity that is not only unknown but absolutely unknowable - which is to say, transcendent.

Example: As many (a) proceed from one (b) so does the universe (c) from God (x)

Joseph Campbell: "But the term God (x), it must be insisted, remains absolutely unknown and unknowable. Oneness can no more be a quality of this (x) than can Love or Reason. Hence, as Kant declared, it is only by 'analogy' that we speak of Love or Reason, Unity, or even Being, as of “God.”

More examples:

as Earth Maker (one) is related to the things drawn from his body (many)

as All-Father (one) is related to the creatures that he has begotten (many)

as Brahma (one) is related to the visions of his meditation (many)

as occluded light (one) to it's refractions (many)

as a spider (one) to its web (many)

so is creation (the one and the many) to “God” (the mystery of existence)

We are basically using analogy poetically in reference to the “mystery of existence” knowing full well it's only an analogical suggestion "not a fact.” Your use of the term "consciousness" was a red flag suggesting you didn't go far enough.

If you had said that you were speaking “metaphorically” or more correctly using “analogy” knowing full well that the empirical world and its cause is a complete “mystery”, rather than a “consciousness”, then I couldn't have said anything.

If you re-read the essay “Primitive Man as Metaphysician" I would greatly love to get your reaction to it. It mentions the Indian metaphysical system of the Vedanta, which purports to be a translation of the metaphorical imagery of Brahminical myths into abstract philosophical terms. One of those philosophical terms is "consciousness" from which I believe you got your notion.

I think this essay may throw light on the issue we are having regarding Richard Dawkins and his claim that many spiritual minded people are “deluded.” As Joseph Campbell students shouldn't we relax and admit that ultimately the empirical world and its cause is a big “mystery.” No amount of analogy, however profound, is going to change that “fact.” (Ruiz)

It's simply the mystery of causation, being and non-being. Many New Age types leave behind the personification images of monotheism for the eastern philosophical terms describing different varieties of "consciousness". They think they've found God in these varieties, or levels of consciousness. In reality they haven't gone far enough yet to penetrate the real intent fo the mythological symbolism. The self described "ex-hippy" administrator of the forum was put in his place by this post and had to admit to Ruiz that he hadn't actually gone far enough and that Ruiz was correct that Campbell was speaking about transcending all categories of thought, which includes even the category of superconsciousness, or undifferentiated consciousness as it were. This is similar to what you see as happening with the original message being "dumbed down" for the masses in Christianity. Campbell's message has been greatly dumbed down by those promoting his lifes work and I've witnessed the process. Something suddenly clicked with me during this whole ordeal with the administration at the Joseph Campbell foundation.

I began arguing on the side of Ruiz in this discussion because he was formerly having to debate everyone alone, very similar to the way you have been having to debate everyone alone from the position of your astrotheological realizations. And then I added something to his realization which is that God is a "fact" after all in the grand scheme of things because it is a fact that mere existence is grounded in deep mystery and God simply symbolizes this "fact" about mere existence. That brings us to what you have described as Jungs "paradox", but it actually isn't a "paradox" when you understand these posts. Here's the a copy of the post Ruiz made after I joined him in defending Campbell's teaching from those who were trying to alter the teaching at jcf - as they were dumbing it down for the general masses as it were:
Quote:
"Hi Everybody! I decided to see what my fellow associates were up to on this thread of discussion! Tat Tvam Asi, I can tell from your posts that you really understood the Joseph Campbell message I was trying to convey. You not only understood it well but you’re having a field day with its consequences. I am learning from you!!! I wish more associates fully comprehended the principle. I can tell from reading many posts that though the idea is simple once you understand it, it requires a certain amount of effort. Not too many people fully comprehend it. It is subtle! It's also difficult to convey to others, especially those who like to give "God" (x) traits. The principle is also the key to understanding all of Joseph Campbell's work. It opens up the world of mythology and religion and helps us understand the role of science.

So what is this great principle?

All of “existence” is grounded in "deep mystery." All of humanity are mystery beings!
Joseph Campbell wanted us to fully realize that. All of the “metaphors” for "God" are pointing to this one great realization.

Science can never penetrate the “mystery of existence.” So Tat Tvam Asi answers Richard Dawkins very well. Our experience of the true “mystery of ourselves” doesn't come easy. That’s why we have all of these ancient myths and rites that aim to help us have such an experience.

So what does such an experience do for us?

It centers us! It stops us from running after this ethnic God or that ethnic God. We stop intellectualizing and trying to give “God” (x) traits. As Tat Tvam Asi said, we just sit still and experience it; experience our connection to it. We are that mystery (x) that we seek through our religions. As Joseph Campbell so wisely said, if the symbol of "God" (x) is not putting you in touch with the “mystery” that you actually are, then you think it's just a “lie.”

Tat Tvam Asi, it's interesting that you chose such an appropriate screen name. It's almost as if it was your goal all along. In my opinion you have arrived! "Thou Art That" is the ultimate realization!

Tat, your undergraduate studies in Joseph Campbell are over! (Ruiz)

We tried to take off together explaining this to others on a variety of different forums with very flaccid results. This was way before I fully realized the implications and precise structure of the Great Year. I had conquered the first function of mythology - the mystical / religious function - and then my path began to unfold in the direction of the second function - the cosmological function - from the perspective of the knowledge that I had gained previously while tackling the first function. In time, you and I eventually crossed paths and we began working very hard on analyzing the hell out of the Great Year symbolism. That was after I started focusing on it from the Vedic Yuga perspective and had to tie some of the Yuga patterns to the zodiacal signs. We had much to exchange in terms of research info. And I found that You, just like Ruiz, had been trying to convey this greater realization that you'd discovered to others on the internet with very flaccid results. I've since taken off with you promoting the Great Year (second function of myth) symbolism and have seen the very same type of flaccid results that I had witnessed previously while trying to relay the mystery of the first function of mythology (the mystical realization).

The bottom line is that the general public have been dumbed down to the point where barely anyone has the ability to understand these deeper esoteric meanings that come at us from antiquity. But I am very grateful to have crossed paths - by chance - with people out there like Ruiz and yourself nonetheless. And now after all that we've been through I have much greater insight as to possibly why we are experiencing such flaccid results with the general public some odd 140 years before the end of the current world age - the end of the first age of the Great Year cycle. The dumbing down fits squarely into the precessional theme of the age that we currently live in. As we are approaching the end of the current age the MP has just begun officially. It's very early on right now however. I think that in time you'll find a strong movement full of those who have done their homework and do understand where the two worlds of 'theism and atheism' meet and merge. That's one of the main points of the movement actually and is a point that will be emphasized in the release of the new youtube video as a matter of fact.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
Acharya exposed one such occurrence in CiE dealing with the mystery of Kore and Aion which had been intentionally censored out of English translations. There was intent in this censorship of the ancient mysteries from the masses.
I’ve long been stunned by the visceral hostility among the religious towards natural theology. Churches are now totally frozen in their inability to engage with ideas. There is a palpable fear that the institution will crash about their ears if they so much as allow any free enquiry about the meaning of the dogma they spout. No wonder there is such an immense gulf between church piety and popular culture. The spirit of pious fraud is alive and well.

The censors seem genuinely to regard ideas such as Kore and Aion as Satanic, so they think they are doing a good thing by their deletion of ‘wrong’ ideas they perceive as evil. The motivation of such censorship seems to be the belief that the supernatural God provides the basis of human freedom and ethics within a linear theory of time. Questioning of supernaturalism through inclusion of natural cyclic Gods like Kore and Aion is seen as acceptance of fatalism, and therefore a regression to primitive superstition, to be addressed with shunning, pats on the head or straightjackets. ‘Aion’ is the ultimate fatalist divinity, so is anathema to the Christian dogmatic vision of freedom of the will. The irony is that their supernatural Augustinian dogma is the truly primitive fantasy. Condescending comments about the error of natural theology are nothing but intellectual bigotry. Such assumptions should be the stuff of rational contestability, but the primal fears conjure up weird taboos.

I discussed astrotheology in my BA Honours thesis in 1985, but found that as soon as I tried to discuss any astrological concepts the shutters went up all around, among the philosophers, the theologians and the scientists. Part of the fear is that astrotheology provides a natural explanation for eschatology. People regard the whole Second Coming discourse of the apocalypse as purely magical, involving bizarre ideas such as a change in the laws of physics, or a time frame of millions of years. The simple framework of continuity and change between Ages that is presented in the Bible, understood against precession, produces genuine fear. I find that otherwise intelligent people will not look me in the eye if I so much as start to mention such topics, but instead look like bunnies in the headlights. I just don’t get why academics never engage with these ideas except with the protection of relativist postmodern irony. Are they all just gutless?

Quote:
the cosmological function [of mythology] … is to provide an image of the universe and to see past the images to the eternal mystery which transcends all images. When you can manage to see the radiance of eternity in all of the forms and images of time the world has ended as you once viewed it.
I wrote a paper on the meaning of eternity for Plato. In summary, his Academy had three subjects, logic, physics and ethics. Each has a separate meaning of eternity, respectively ‘outside time’ (mathematical logic), ‘lasting forever’ (permanence of laws of physics), and ‘timeless values’ (moral ideas of good, just, love, equal, beauty). The eternal transcendent mystery of mythology brings together these three meanings of eternity. However, the idea of the ‘e-ternal’ God as ‘outside time’ has acquired a baleful dominance that excludes and distorts efforts to see divinity in physics and ethics. Precession is ‘eternal’ in the physical sense that movement of the sun by one degree per human lifetime is too slow for people to easily comprehend. But we know that the Great Year has spun around nearly 200,000 times since life evolved. Richard Dawkins gives us a cosmology for these ideas with his concept of ‘deep time’ discussed in The Greatest Show On Earth, and his examination of the logic of extremely slow evolutionary processes. In The Extended Phenotype he compares evolution to a ship that takes 1000 years to cross the Atlantic Ocean, to help us frame the counter-intuitive reality of evolution through deep time.
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I can follow all of the deep mysticism of these allegories from the MP without missing a beat. The precession is being used in a way which is supposed to open up an individual to seeing the radiance of eternity through this cyclic vision. Jung and Campbell were pushing this greater realization.
You may recall I raised the correlation of the zodiac and the four creatures of Ezekiel at Booktalk thread on Revelation, and Stahrwe, apart from rejecting it out of hand, argued the Eagle is not a Scorpion. It is as clear as day that the mandorla of Christ Pantocrator surrounded by the four creatures sets the Biblical vision of eternity within the temporal cosmic framework of the zodiac. The cosmic framework of faith is a piece of secret knowledge which is denied by orthodox dogma despite being compelling and obvious in its simplicity, if people would only break the taboo that makes it a forbidden topic of public discussion. The censorship is as bad as Soviet Russia. Part of the story here is that Christians feel defiled when discussing concepts that also appear in transgressive fields such as the tarot, where the four creatures feature on The World card. It is psychologically similar to how communists in Russia felt defiled by exposure to bourgeois values, so banned them from public discourse. I look forward to seeing public debate about these allegories from the mythicist position.
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And as for God, it is possible to be atheist and yet know that God exists. It's not a paradox once God is understood as "a metaphor for a mystery that transcends all thought." I know that the mystery exists because existence itself is grounded in deep mystery. That's where knowing that God exists comes into play. The mystery that God represents does actually exist and it's the mystery of the ages, a perpetual mystery transcending all thought. Jung had zeroed in on this mystery and Campbell did likewise. This is also very difficult to convey to others, especially those who insist on giving God traits. It points to beyond deity, beyond consciousness, beyond any type of energy or force. It's just the mystery factor involved with mere existence. And so one is atheist, lacking belief in personified deities, and yet theist in terms of having belief in the mystery of existence which the God symbolism is meant to convey in the very deepest sense. This realization doesn't come easy, and so we find all of these myths and rites that can help one achieve such a realization. This is also why it was all dumbed down for the masses...

Most people will say ‘Huh?’ when you say God is not an entity. I recently wrote a review of Karen Armstrong’s The Case for God, focussing on her discussion of the apophatic idea that we cannot know the traits of God. Sadly, as usual, such discussion falls stillborn from the press. And yet, we can look to the Ten Commandments, specifically the second law prohibiting idols, and see that any reification of God as an entity with defined traits breaks this basic Judeo-Christian law. Astrotheology respects divinity in its timeless mystery and multi-temporal complexity, whereas the ‘entity’ thinking of orthodoxy is idolatrous and in contradiction to the basic principles of the Bible. Maimonides saw this in the Guide to the Perplexed, and Jung picks it up in Aion, that we have broken real faith with God once we claim to describe traits of God.

People say God is good and will save humanity. Our species could go extinct this century from global warming, which would render faith in a good God redundant. Perhaps though, we can construct a vision of the demiurge through Christ that enables us to see human salvation as attuned to an ultimate deep spirit of the universe. Discussion of Biblical ideas such as the remnant on Mount Zion only makes sense against such a natural scientific prophecy. Constructing a supernatural mythology around our vision of the future is inherently idolatrous and wrong. However, interpreting the future against mythic archetypes based on scientific understanding can be a helpful way to formulate a narrative picture of the place of humanity in the cosmos.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:30 am 
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Robert Tulip wrote:
And yet, we can look to the Ten Commandments, specifically the second law prohibiting idols, and see that any reification of God as an entity with defined traits breaks this basic Judeo-Christian law.

This one sentence alone reveals your level of awareness. Most people can not grasp it. But once it has been understood it's so very basic in hindsight. God the Father is portrayed as extremely mysterious in scripture. He speaks out from the environment here and there, whether from atop a mountain, a cloud over head, or a burning bush, and the rumblings in Revelation, etc. It's always very abstract and he's never a man-like person standing up in the sky speaking down at us. We're dealing with something very abstract that is meant to symbolize eternity, mere existence as a whole, which is necessarily omnipresent and can speak out from any given place at any given time.

The public has been so dumbed down over the years that they have been lowered to the level trying to see this abstract God representing the mystery involved in mere existence as one of three literal persons referred to as the trinity. Stahrwe, that complete idiot, is so brainwashed that he doesn't have a snow balls chance in hell of ever realizing that reducing the eternal mystery (God) to a personified image (ethnic God) for the sake of human contemplation is to reduce God into a mere idol, a finite form, a finite image. I don't recall if Campbell got this from Jung or Zimmer, but he spoke of the leave taking of God for God, that is, the leave taking of God the ethnic symbol for God the transcendent mystery of all life and being. The mystery's not a human-like entity, nor a mind, nor anything that can be conceptualized or spoken of. It's simply the unknown. The perpetually unknown. It isn't a mystery that can ever be solved by religious leaders nor empirical science.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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