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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:39 pm 
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The Quran.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:39 am 
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Mriana,

Instead of comparing "The Bible" to the Koran it may be more equal to compare the books of Moses with the Koran. As I understand the laws of Moses they make a strict interpretation of the Koranic commands look relatively innocent.. I am willing to admit that I am neglecting a larger context and it is also noted that the Koran was composed in a much later period where slightly less barbaric forms of punishment would naturally be expected, such as the difference between the Christian torture chambers and the stonings of Moses. But Just as there are hardly any Christians who sell every thing to buy swords there are also hardly any Muslims who openly declare a Global Jihad. I agree that the Muslim world needs to challenge the Koran in much the same way that Christians should challenge the gospels. Some argue that Islam cannot exist apart from a call to violence and medieval punishments but those who are called Jews hardly follow the complete Law of Moses yet still consider themselves authentically Jewish.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Don't miss the point in the blog, "Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?" They're both equally extremely violent and barbaric. However, today there are only around 18 million Jews worldwide - not much of a threat at all when compared to the nearly 1.8 Billion Muslims.

Plus, Christianity in the US has been quite tamed specifically thanks to the secular US Constitution. I am unaware of any serious number of Christians who adhere to the Old Testament. It's all about the New Testament for Christians.

I certainly don't see the Koran as innocent even when compared the Pentateuch. The Koran is no less barbaric by any stretch. Especially not when we compare both camps today. Today we have Muslims terrorizing nearly the whole planet whether it's a terrorist attack or attempts to implement sharia law, courts, finance, special privileges etc. Just listen to Muslims and ex-Muslims themselves. Even today we have Muslims leaders and clerics claiming Islam will rule America, UK, Canada, Australia etc.
Quote:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

-- Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Quote:
"This religion [Islam] will destroy all other religions through the Islamic Jihad fighters"

-- Jordanian/Palestinian School Book 1998

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... lam-lg.jpg

That is why Geert Wilders made the short documentary, Fitna

http://www.truthbeknown.com/fitnareview.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiWoNPP_aUA

"there are also hardly any Muslims who openly declare a Global Jihad"

Radical Islam and the Global Jihad Against West


I recommend giving this documentary with Muslim and ex-Muslim scholars a serious going over.

"Islam: What the West Needs to Know" video

Nearly everyday in the news there is another terrorist attack. There have been nearly 15,000 worldwide just since 9-11. The Truth About Islam

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:58 pm 
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You call THIS tame? I don't think Xianity, esp Evangelicals, are still "tame". These guys are up there with the Taliban.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:46 pm 
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Tame

I'm sure we've discussed this before somewhere at one point or another. Maybe you misunderstand what I mean by tamed. Lions and tigers can be tamed for the circus but it doesn't make them pussy cats. I said, "Christianity in the US has been quite tamed specifically thanks to the secular US Constitution," which is true. And, most everybody knows it. It doesn't mean Christianity is innocent is just means that they are tame compared to Christianity in the past. Thanks to the US Constitution Christianity has no real power here. Oh sure, they try & try as they might but, we have organizations that keep them in their place. Such as:

Freedom From Religion Foundation

* I love the Freethought Quizzes

Americans United for Separation of Church and State

Secular Coalition for America

Theocracy Watch

I've never heard of any similar type of organizations for Islam anywhere in the world. The US is the first nation throughout all history to separate church from state. The principle is quite strong in the US as even many Christians support it. That certainly doesn't mean that some Christians are not trying to do away with church/state separation - they've been trying to do that from the beginning. And they always fail. Christians have to abide by secular laws not theocratic laws and there's nothing they can do about it. They've been tamed.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:33 pm 
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Dear Freethinker22,

I tried to watch the Video you posted, only watched a few minutes as I detected what appeared to be intellectual dishonesty. The first man you see introduced as a former PLO member but as he is a die-hard Christian, how many of us are aware of his religious motives?
First they show us a burning flag (scary!!) next he starts to bring up 911. The problem with this is that the US gov has rooms of evidence around 911 still unreleased, and even if all the evidence were to be released who in their right mind would trust evidence “sitting” this long?
Not only has this fueled conspiracy theories, this lack of utter transparency has caused many otherwise rational individuals in Pakistan to consider the rhetoric of the religious extremists, not to mention that it is contrary to a Jeffersonian Republic. I understand your point about the const. 4 US restricting the ambitions of Christian fundamentalists, but somehow it crept in with manifest destiny. Besides they have it pretty well with God on US money, in your kid’s earliest vocabulary, they even have their book shoved in your face if you ever see a Judge, etc... Not to mention all other sorts of special Christian privileges such as how during prohibition they were allowed to buy cheap legal wine (way more then needed for sacrament)

A while back the pentagon had a "program" that would take highly influential individuals and give them a watered down tour of Iraq, hoping that when they would return that they would support the war efforts (as I believe all of them did). These actions are highly illegal and I hope that you know that your tax dollars actually support propaganda aimed at you, something Beck and Hannity forgot when they were accusing Iran of the same thing. .
I understand that you are concerned about Muslim extremists and even Muslim forms of government, I am likewise, but, besides the human rights violations in places like Russia and China, I am also concerned about the many useless and preventable sicknesses and deaths which occur in the US everyday. We have long since known of the dangers of asbestos, yet to this day there are MANY schools containing asbestos while public moneys go to things like sports stadiums for private corporations like the NBA,NFL,etc..; as if they did not have it easy enough with there free air time on many “news” shows. Also, I find the notion that Jihadists could blow the world into submission of Islam as being silly.

You quoted me
“there are also hardly any Muslims who openly declare a Global Jihad"
I am still convinced that if you asked all Christians if they wanted Christianity to be the predominant religion, that those who said yes would be somewhat equal to the # of Muslims who support a “Global Jihad”. Also lets not forget that nations who they take to be “Christian”(I agree) have historically wronged them and that some of these Christian nations are also the most powerful, hence they have Mow’s gun. Many would separate these groups by claiming the Christian zealots are relatively harmless and that there are few suicidal mass-murdering Christians, but nuts come in all shapes and sizes and as far as I can see the speech of Jesus hints to a future conflict between world religions, I am not sure I see this so much in the Koran and even less so in the Mohammed bios. But always open to learning!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:19 am 
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Code:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:25 am 
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now,lets go back to our subject.

What about the black stone near the Kaaba? Do moslems worship it?
The black stone is like the bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba. It is not holy at all and is not worshiped in any shape or form. The black stone is nothing but a Heavenly object (an asteroid) that GOD Almighty descended on earth to determine the exact location of where His House was going to be built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, peace be upon them.
NASA'S CONFIRMATION:
""Stars" falling from the skies have been known since ancient times; rarely, stones are found that were tied to these "shooting stars". One such rock has been venerated by Islam (in its encased shrine in Mecca) for more than 1300 years. By the 19th Century, meteorites were identified correctly as samples from other parts of the Solar System. They are part of the nearly 500 tons of extraterrestrial rock material that reaches and enters the atmosphere each day. Most of that material is burned up by friction from the high speed of entry but meteoric dust can remain in the air and a very few individual blocks of material survive this passage to fall in the sea or on the ground as meteorites."
(Source) http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_2.html
"The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven. Devout Muslims make the Hajj, a pilgrimage to this shrine required at least once in a lifetime. Here it is as seen in a Quickbird image:" (Source) http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect4/Sect4_4.html
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, claimed that the stone was sent down by Allah Almighty to Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael, peace be upon both of them, to give the precise location of where the Kaaba was to be built by them. We believe that Prophets Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba. Western Scientists have confirmed that the black stone, which resides near the Kaaba in the Holy City of Mecca, is an outside METEORITE OBJECT!
While Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him kissed the stone before, because it was chosen by Allah Almighty to descend on earth to determine the location of the Kaaba, but that still doesn't make it anything holy.
It certainly makes it a remarkable and noticeable object that is worth visiting and seeing, but anyone who worships it is an idol worshiper! And like I said above, those ignorant and illiterate from the Muslims who go as far as rubbing themselves against the Kaaba and/or the stone to get "blessings" are not representing Islam's True picture at all.
For more information, please visit: The black stone in Mecca is not worshiped by Muslims.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/que11.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:48 am 
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moslem lady wrote:
ok, Mr.freethinkaluva lets start from the begining :D

let me ,first,introduce my self to you:
i am egyptian ,my native language is Arabic, so please forgive me if i make some mistakes in english :oops: . i am 41 ,i have four children. i graduated from faculty of literature, english department. but i don't work :( because they give very low salary. you won't belive me it's around 200 Egyptian Pounds (40 dollars) :shock: . note that we pay 2000 Egyptian Pounds (400 dollars)for our living every month.but ,thanks to Allah , my husband 's wealthy enough to suply his family ,and give me enough time to enjoy vexing you :twisted: .


And you don't see anything wrong with this picture?

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:19 am 
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Dear Moslem lady,


You wrote; "The black stone is like the bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba. It is not holy at all and is not worshiped in any shape or form"

Later we read; "The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven"

I think I understand your view about the the Kaaba only representing a location (Of Abraham), are we to take it that the true holy shrine is only represented by the "rectangular structure"? If I was a Moslem I would believe the stone to be sacred because Mohammed kissed it and it was sent from God. I do not think it should be called an "Idol" it probably is best described as a relic.

Also, would like you to explain your phrasing of "peace be upon him","or them" as I understand the phrasing it was first more like "May peace be upon him". The way it is now used it is similar to how Christians, and many non-Christians, feel compelled to say"God Bless You" after someone sneezes, which I also think was first "May God bless you". But, in English, to me it almost sounds like you and Christians are commanding God to "bless" or "bestow peace". I have even noticed certain Christians who, after saying the name Jesus, finger the cross sign and repeat their own formula (usually 'son of God'). Furthermore, if others used a similar phrase when introducing their authoritative teachers would you take its use the same way?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Quote:
And you don't see anything wrong with this picture?



i know ,Mriana, i like to work. but we are suffering an economical crisis . working as a teacher for 40 dollars a month is realy a great suffering to me . not only because of the low salary , but also because of the long journey to the town where i am supposed to work . at the same time , i am not impeding the educational process . because we , already have teachers more than the students themselves . but i am not wasting my time . i studied and had a diploma in teaching methods .Now, i teach computer ,Volunteerly.i help some moslem brothers by translating topics on the internet ,for them .they own a room on paltalk (oJJl Muslim Christian Dialogue oJJl room , Dialogue between Muslims and Christians ). and my last mission was to search for and translate a topic about the relationship between the perpitual virginity of Mary,mother of jesus,and paganism, which i pleasently found in mrs acharya writings. beside keeping the house and helping my children in studing.

conclusion : i am full of energy. i am not wasting time . i like what i am doing. me and my husband ,we love each other , we studied the diploma together. we shared some other training courses .


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Thor

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dear Mr Danhopkins
i thank you very much for your polite speech with me.

Quote:
The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven"
Quote:

these words are nasa,s words not mine. i copied them for the word "meteorite" to assure that it fall from heaven. yes it is sacred .and we know very will that it can do no good or harm.i went to mecca many times and i never touched it. and if i touch it i would be happy because i touched somthing that Mohamed touched before .
'peace be upon him' means ;may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Bast

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Thanks also for the reply, I am still a little confused about "May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him" because it would seem that this would be between Mohammed and Allah and have nothing to do with ones wish (may). As I inderstand it usage I would only guess it could have meant "he is blessed by Allah". But this is only a guess based on English and I do not know this phrase in its earliest language. Perhaps you could shed some light?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:18 pm 
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Thor

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no sir 'May' means that everything happens according to God's well.
i posted two messages to you please see them


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Quote:
DanHopkins "former PLO member but as he is a die-hard Christian"

That's not any sort of intellectual dishonesty. He doesn't proselytize for Christianity at all nor does he lie about Islam. I would never post such crap here. I do not support Christianity. The guy is a former Muslim and a Muslim scholar who accurately explains the ideology of Islam in a very scholarly manner. Accusing him of intellectual dishonesty just because he's a Christian is known as the ad hominem fallacy. That type of argument does not counter the merits of his comments on Islam.

I'm not even going to get into 9-11 here. This is not the thread for that. Nor asbestos, NBA, NFL or Mow’s gun. These are distractions from the issue at hand.

Quote:
DanHopkins "I find the notion that Jihadists could blow the world into submission of Islam as being silly"

Then you may not know all that much about Islam and its history nor it's agenda for its future. Muslim leaders and clerics have made videos speaking in public to very large crowds of Muslims admitting their agenda. It's no secret. If you didn't have such a knee-jerk reaction and stop watching the video at 90 seconds you might've learned that. I highly recommend watching the documentary "Islam: What the West Needs to Know" video

Quote:
DanHopkins "I am still convinced that if you asked all Christians if they wanted Christianity to be the predominant religion, that those who said yes would be somewhat equal to the # of Muslims who support a “Global Jihad”."

That may be true or it may not - it's irrelevant. It's the Islamic tu quoque (or "you too") argument that is another distraction from the issue at hand. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:
DanHopkins "Many would separate these groups by claiming the Christian zealots are relatively harmless and that there are few suicidal mass-murdering Christians"

The fact remains that Christianity just does not have the power it used to. People are leaving Christianity as the polls indicate that Christianity has been on the decline for several years. That's why they're so desperate. Meanwhile, the secular groups are building in numbers. It certainly doesn't mean that there aren't Xian zealots but, the fact remains that the ideology of Christianity doesn't have the same dominant power it used to. Here's just a couple examples:

1. The secular US Constitution
2. Many Christians have been arrested over the years for assorted criminal activity including the Catholic church for those 11,000 reported cases of child molestation. And, recently the gay prostitution ring and other fraud & corruption.
3. Christianity does NOT have a type of Islamic Conference (OIC), representing the 57 Islamic States at the UN. This same OIC has been pushing the U.N. "blasphemy resolution" for a WORLDWIDE criminalization of any and all criticism of Islam:

UN anti-blasphemy measures have sinister goals, observers say
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... f6e78c78d5

Islam Rewrites UN Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATg3GWT_ljE

Quote:
UN Watch Briefing

Proposal at U.N. to criminalize 'defamation of Islam'

Geneva, March 11, 2009 — A new U.N. resolution circulated today by Islamic states would define any questioning of Islamic dogma as a human rights violation, intimidate dissenting voices, and encourage the forced imposition of Sharia law. (See full U.N. text below.)

UN Watch obtained a copy of the Pakistani-authored proposal after it was distributed today among Geneva diplomats attending the current session of the UN Human Rights Council. Entitled "Combating defamation of religions," it mentions only Islam.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/ ... ontent_id={AF491436-ED3D-46F5-8CC4-E14577482787}&notoc=1

Video of Hitchens on Lou Dobbs discussing the U.N. Blasphemy Resolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRb2OKPBswM

Islam Rewrites UN Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATg3GWT_ljE

UN resolution "combating the defamation of religion" will strengthen Islamists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws1UqJsUX9E&NR=1

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/unitednations

http://www.humanrightsactioncenter.org

There's so much more but if you don't get the point by now then you probably never will. Christianity is simply not anywhere near the global power grab that Islam is on the brink of. If that happens we will eventually see a new, modern day type of worldwide Inquisition to rid the world of non-believers &/or turn them into 2nd class citizens or Dhimmi's. Which will lead to another Dark Age but this time in the name of Islam.

-----

Quote:
DanHopkins "nations who they take to be “Christian”(I agree) have historically wronged them and that some of these Christian nations are also the most powerful"

Neither are innocent. Neither have any moral high ground. Islam has certainly attacked the US in the past for no legit reason whatsoever - beyond being non-Muslim:

Islamic Crusades Episode 5: Why Did They Hate Us in 1783?



Quote:
DanHopkins "Many would separate these groups by claiming the Christian zealots are relatively harmless and that there are few suicidal mass-murdering Christians, but nuts come in all shapes and sizes and as far as I can see the speech of Jesus hints to a future conflict between world religions, I am not sure I see this so much in the Koran and even less so in the Mohammad bios. But always open to learning!"

I assure you there is just as much, if not more hate speech in the Koran, some of it from Muhammad. Islam has quite a similar eschatology or 'end times' scenario to that of Christianity in many ways. Both religions contain prophecy for the genocide of 2/3rds the NON-BELIEVING world population.

Comparing Abrahamic 'End Times' Prophecies

Here is an example of what some Muslim leaders have been saying for years:

Muslim Takeover of Europe and America?

Now, if Christians in America did that they'd end up in jail. Just look at what happened to Geert Wilders for christ's sakes. He ended up in trial for pointing out the obvious about the Islamic ideology in his short 16 minute film titled, Fitna.

Again, you just don't see Christianity in any position for any worldwide power grab like the position Islam is moving towards right now. If that happens, maybe Christians around the world would unite but not with the UN behind them nor any Christian nations because there simply aren't any. Christianity has been tamed while Islam obviously has not. Both ideologies would just love to create world war 3 just so they can see their 'end times' scenarios play out though.

We all need to work together to ensure that those 'end times' scenarios don't get to play out. It would be nothing more than the largest genocide throughout all human history. Picking sides is not the answer, they both need to be neutralized from any power to create such a self-fulfilling prophecy that offers no good whatsoever.

A Brief History of the Apocalypse

The Roots of Islam

Quotes from the Koran

Fitna

Just listen to what both Muslims and ex-Muslims are saying:
Quote:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

-- Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)


Taqiyya, Islamic deception




Wafa Sultan - Truth of Islam



Quote:
* Dhimwit: "A non-Muslim member of a free society that abets the stated cause of Islamic domination with remarkable gullibility. A dhimwit is always quick to extend sympathy to the very enemy that would take away his or her own freedom (or life) if given the opportunity."
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Dhimwits.htm

Quote:
"Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. Its goals are to (a) unmask Islam and show that it is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism but disguised as religion and (b) to help Muslims leave it, end this culture of hate caused by their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity. Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can't be reformed. Islam is rigid but brittle, that is why Muslims do not tolerate criticism of it. All we (X--Muslims) have to do is tell the truth. It's that simple. The truth about Islam is out. It's all here in this site. With truth, the decent Muslims will leave Islam

Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct."

http://www.faithfreedom.org

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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