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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:54 pm 
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moslem lady wrote:
ok, Mr.freethinkaluva lets start from the begining :D

...but ,thanks to Allah , my husband 's wealthy enough to suply his family ,and give me enough time to enjoy vexing you.

Ahh, well I am not feeling very vexed at all. You will be better off finding areas where we can agree. Such as:
Quote:
moslem lady "and my last mission was to search for and translate a topic about the relationship between the perpitual virginity of Mary,mother of jesus,and paganism, which i pleasently found in mrs acharya writings"

Acharya's work can be a big help on those issues and we here are more than happy to help out. If you haven't seen it yet, there's a thread on this titled,

The Virgin Birth

If you're interested, depending on what your class is teaching, you might find this thread interesting too:

Dying and Rising Gods

And so many other threads. We are more than happy to befriend you and help you share information with your class. So, if anything else comes up, by all means let us know. All the best to you and your family.

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:02 pm 
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moslem lady wrote:
Quote:
And you don't see anything wrong with this picture?



i know ,Mriana, i like to work. but we are suffering an economical crisis . working as a teacher for 40 dollars a month is realy a great suffering to me . not only because of the low salary , but also because of the long journey to the town where i am supposed to work . at the same time , i am not impeding the educational process . because we , already have teachers more than the students themselves . but i am not wasting my time . i studied and had a diploma in teaching methods .Now, i teach computer ,Volunteerly.i help some moslem brothers by translating topics on the internet ,for them .they own a room on paltalk (oJJl Muslim Christian Dialogue oJJl room , Dialogue between Muslims and Christians ). and my last mission was to search for and translate a topic about the relationship between the perpitual virginity of Mary,mother of jesus,and paganism, which i pleasently found in mrs acharya writings. beside keeping the house and helping my children in studing.

conclusion : i am full of energy. i am not wasting time . i like what i am doing. me and my husband ,we love each other , we studied the diploma together. we shared some other training courses .


You can actually speak to Muslim brothers? Do you have to wear a gunny sack with a peep hole when you talk to them?

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:38 am 
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Dear Freethinker22,

You took a part of my quote ""DanHopkins "former PLO member but as he is a die-hard Christian"

next you added;

That's not any sort of intellectual dishonesty. He doesn't proselytize for Christianity at all nor does he lie about Islam. I would never post such crap here. I do not support Christianity. The guy is a former Muslim and a Muslim scholar who accurately explains the ideology of Islam in a very scholarly manner. Accusing him of intellectual dishonesty just because he's a Christian is known as the ad hominem fallacy. That type of argument does not counter the merits of his comments on Islam.

That’s odd I thought this was the same guy I saw on the Sean Hanity show where he himself brought up his faith in the "son of God" -in what I take you would believe was a "scholarly" discussion. But I am not such a fool that I would discount everything that he has said, like most people I think he has some good truths.

Next you quote me and wrote; "" DanHopkins "I find the notion that Jihadists could blow the world into submission of Islam as being silly"

Then you may not know all that much about Islam and its history nor its agenda for its future. Muslim leaders and clerics have made videos speaking in public to very large crowds of Muslims admitting their agenda. It's no secret. If you didn't have such a knee-jerk reaction and stop watching the video at 90 seconds you might've learned that. I highly recommend watching the documentar

Inever said that this was not the agenda of some, but if the world would stand for that then that’s what we will get-but I do not believe this could happen (maybe a very short time in name only)
You wrote "Muslim Leaders" - of what percentage? If you do not have a percentage R you going from a gut feeling? Are we to believe because a lot of videos have been made on this subject this alone speaks of the urgency? By a similar line of thinking we would think Jesus message is more important then Mohammed because every year around Dec CNN and the History channel run specials of Jesus, but none on other religious leaders. Furthermore there are very few religions that have not have violent propagators of their faith claiming that the God-end justifies their means.
Personally I believe that all peoples are a result of their conditioning, and it has been stated before that some of the peoples around where Islam grew were utterly barbaric (in contrast to others like Mohammed's Bedouins). Many ancient cultures testify to this, the Greeks (as Centurion, or Gandhara) the Chinese the Persians and the Buddhists (see Purna, Punna). A reason for this may have been all the fighting to control hard to access central trading points from Afghan. After Alexander's Bactrian settlements fell apart the Romans finally found another way to India and we finally see these peoples scattered about the area, many dried up despots and their goons had do there dirty work somewhere else. But the ancient spice road did not end; there have always been those to the north south east and west who have attempted to control the parts of Central Asia just west of the Himalayas. When the British invaded Afghanistan they displaced many of these peoples, some of the ancient Tals relocated in what is today the U.A.E. Are we to believe that they have not always hated westerners who are rightly or wrongly grouped as Christians, and that they did not keep in touch, and are to this day culturally and ideologically united with their Afghan and Pakistan families? Although this is all after Mohammed's time we cannot forget that many similar situations occurred long before him and that it has left its impression on the people’s culture and speech. And as a book cannot be greater than

By the way I also watch other videos on subjects which I believe is even MORE life threatening then your crazy Jihadists, but they probably would not make a good Hollywood movie, or the Hannity show.

Next you quote


DanHopkins "Many would separate these groups by claiming the Christian zealots are relatively harmless and that there are few suicidal mass-murdering Christians, but nuts come in all shapes and sizes and as far as I can see the speech of Jesus hints to a future conflict between world religions, I am not sure I see this so much in the Koran and even less so in the Mohammad bios. But always open to learning!"

You wrote;

I assure you there is just as much, if not more hate speech in the Koran, some of it from Muhammad. Islam has quite a similar eschatology or 'end times' scenario to that of Christianity in many ways. Both religions contain prophecy for the genocide of 2/3rds the NON-BELIEVING world population.""

I see the end-times set up in both doctrines, but to me this theme runs stronger in the short gospels, also how many faiths do not have what we call an end-times scenario?

I agree with your point that Islam, or a good number of its leaders stand out as being presumptuously authoritative, but to be fair we must take into account how new this religion was and how many faiths they were competing with and that they have always been surrounded by Empires.

I consider the spread of Islam to have been a warlike movement, involving many many brutal crimes at the hand of lunatics. But, besides the Christian crusades, do we also judge Alexander the Great & others on these standards? Surely, buy todays standards, he was a maniac also, but today we see him in his homogenized form.

You also stated that "You do not see that Christianity is in any position for a world wide power grab" earlier I believe you stated that Christianity is shrinking, I agree, but to claim that they do not have a lock on world religion is also dishonest as Christainity has followed western guns everywhere. As English is the most popular language I would venture to guess that more people in the world speak English over Arabic or Parsi, and as more people use the word God over Allah this also may add something.

You wrote:

""We all need to work together to ensure that those 'end times' scenarios don't get to play out. It would be nothing more than the largest genocide throughout all human history. Picking sides is not the answer, they both need to be neutralized from any power to create such a self-fulfilling prophecy that offers no good whatsoever"

I hope you do not think I was picking one over the other, at the same time we can also overstate the case, and in doing so we may also be demonizing.

Thanks for your time!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Quote:
You can actually speak to Muslim brothers? Do you have to wear a gunny sack with a peep hole when you talk to them?


dear Mrs Mriana;

this is very funny. why don't i speak to Muslim brothers.women were accustomed to question the Prophet (SAW) while men were present. Neither were they embarassed to have their voices heard nor did the Prophet prevent their inquiries. Even in the case of Omar when he was challenged by a woman during his khutba on the minbar, he did not deny her. Rather, he admitted that she was right and he was wrong and said: "Everybody is more knowledgeable than Omar."

Another Qur'anic example of a woman speaking publicly is that the daughter of the Shaykh mentioned in the Qur'an in 28:23. Furthermore, the Qur'an narrates the coversation between Sulayman and the Queen of Sheba as well as between her and her subjects. All of these examples support the fatwa that women are allowed to voice their opinion publicly for whatever has been prescribed to those before us is prescribed to us, unless it was unanimously rejected by Islamic doctrine.

Thus, the only prohibition is the female talking softly and flirting in a manner meant to excite and tempt the male. This is expressed in the Qur'an as complacent speech which Allah mentions in 33:32:

Quote:
Do you have to wear a gunny sack with a peep hole when you talk to them?



This is also funny . I am proud of my hijab (vail) .I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern. there is no better words than the following Article:


Liberation by the Veil
by Sehmina Jaffer Chopra


Modesty and chastity , very important ideologies with Islam, are achieved by prescribing standards on behavior and the dress of a Muslim. A woman who adheres to the tenets of Islam is required to follow the dress code called Hijab, other synonyms are Veil, Purdah, or just Covering. It is an act of faith and establishes a Muslim's life with honor, respect and dignity. The Hijab is viewed as a liberation for women, in that the covering brings about "an aura of respect" (Takim, 22) and women are recognized as individuals who are admired for their mind and personality, "not for their beauty or lack of it" ( Mustafa ) and not as sex objects.

Contrary to popular belief, the covering of the Muslim woman is not oppression but a liberation from the shackles of male scrutiny and the standards of attractiveness. In Islam, a woman is free to be who she is inside, and immune from being portrayed as sex symbol and lusted after. Islam exalts the status of a woman by commanding that she "enjoys equal rights to those of man in everything, she stands on an equal footing with man " (Nadvi, 11) and both share mutual rights and obligations in all aspects of life.

Men and women though equal are not identical, and each compliments the other in the different roles and functions that they are responsible to. " From an Islamic perspective, to view a woman as a sex symbol is to denigrate her. Islam believes that a woman is to be judged by her [virtuous] character and actions rather than by her looks or physical features" (Takim, 22). In the article, "My Body Is My Own Business", Ms. Naheed Mustafa , a young Canadian born and raised, university-educated Muslim woman writes, "The Quran [ which is the Holy Book for Muslims] teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is his or her character." She goes on to say, "In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, its neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgment of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction."

Muslims believe that God gave beauty to all women, but that her beauty is not be seen by the world, as if the women are meat on the shelf to be picked and looked over. When she covers herself she puts herself on a higher level and men will look at her with respect and she is noticed for her intellect , faith ,and personality, not for her beauty. In many societies, especially in the West, women are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness and are compelled to follow the male standards of beauty and abstract notions of what is attractive, half realizing that such pursuit is futile and often humiliating (Mustafa). Chastity , modesty, and piety are promoted by the institution of veiling. The hijab in no way prevents a woman from playing her role as an important individual in a society nor does it make her inferior." (Takim,22)

A Muslim woman may wear whatever she pleases in the presence of her husband and family or among women friends. But when she goes out or when men other than her husband or close family are present she is expected to wear a dress which will cover [her hair and] all parts of her body , and not reveal her figure. What a contrast with Western fashions which every year concentrate quite intentionally on exposing yet another erogenous zone to the public gaze! The intention of Western dress is to reveal the figure, while the intention of Muslim dress is to conceal [and cover] it, at least in public (Lemu,25).

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society. It is very different from the cruel methods that other societies subject women, in that their worth is always judged by their physical appearance. The are numerous examples of discrimination at the workplace where women are either accepted or rejected, because of their attractiveness and sex appeal.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge"(Nadvi,8). The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief" (Nadvi, 20). Hijab solves the problem of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western ideology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle, where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as s ex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention" (Mustafa). A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves. .

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity (Takim, 2). According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a speci al commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

In Sura Nur of the Holy Qu'ran it says, " Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them, and God is well acquainted with what they do". Many of the misconceptions of the Muslim woman in the west, particularly her veil stems from Arab and Muslim countries that have deviated from the true doctrines of Islam, and have " mixed up Islamic principles with pre-Islamic pagan traditions" (Bahnassawi, 67)

In this present period of decline from Islam, many Muslim women are alienated , isolated from social life, and are oppressed by Muslim men and rulers who use the name of religion for their injustices. (Bahnassawi, 65) In this instance, the Hijab is used as a means of keeping many Muslim women away from society, with the misconception that it signifies isolation and weakness. But as many Muslim women come back into the fold of the untainted and true Islam, they are able to recognize the injustice of men who have for so long stripped them of their rights to be an integral part of society and "deserving the same dignity, honor, progress and prosperity as the men" (Nadvi,26). Women regaining their true identity and role in society, are now wearing Hijab and embracing its concept of liberation for women, and are taking their rightful places that Islam had endowed upon them fourteen hundred years ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:57 am 
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I'm going to address a couple things.
Quote:
Dan "You wrote "Muslim Leaders" - of what percentage? If you do not have a percentage R you going from a gut feeling?"

I am going from the Koran, Islamic history, as well as news reports from around the world, videos of Muslim leaders and clerics themselves, as I already stated "Muslim leaders and clerics have made videos speaking in public to very large crowds of Muslims admitting their agenda. It's no secret." Many may be found in the thread, The Truth About Islam. Also, websites that are paying attention to this serious issue. Here's one, The Religion of Peace. "what percentage?" I posted some of that below. I tend to leave the "gut feelings" to the faithful.
Quote:
Dan "Furthermore there are very few religions that have not have violent propagators of their faith claiming that the God-end justifies their means."

That's a tu quoque distraction fallacy that does not address the issue at hand. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Quote:
Dan "You also stated that "You do not see that Christianity is in any position for a world wide power grab" earlier I believe you stated that Christianity is shrinking, I agree, but to claim that they do not have a lock on world religion is also dishonest as Christainity has followed western guns everywhere. "

The evidence shows that Christianity is NOT in any position for a world wide power grab for a variety of reasons. 1. They don't have the money they used to. 2. They aren't highly respected right now with all the corruption, child molestations & gay prostitution ring, for starters. Of course, none of that means they won't try, I just see no way for them to be successful.
Quote:
Dan "As English is the most popular language I would venture to guess that more people in the world speak English over Arabic or Parsi, and as more people use the word God over Allah this also may add something."

Another tu quoque fallacy. You gotta stop repeating tu quoque arguments. Tu quoque & Taqiyya (Islamic deception) are also constantly used by Muslims as talking points too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

How to debate a Muslim

Ibn Warraq on How to Debate a Muslim, Part I

How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels by Ayesha Ahmed

From the Qur'an:

1. "Infidels are your sworn enemies," (Sura 4 Verse 101).
2. "Make war on the infidels around you,"(Sura 9 Verse 123 and Sura 66 Verse 9).
3. "Be ruthless to the infidels," (Sura 48 Verse 29).
4. "Fight those who believe not Allah nor the Last Day,"(Sura 9 Verse 29).
5. "Strike off the heads of infidels in battle," (Sura 47 Verse 4).
6. "If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him,"(al-Bukhari 9.84.57).
7. "Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends,"(Sura 5 Verse 61 and Sura 60 Verse 13).
8. "Never be a helper to the disbeliever,"(Sura 28 Verse 26).
9. "Kill the disbeliever wherever you find them,"(Sura 2 Verse 191).
10. "The unbelievers are the worst beasts in the eyes of Allah," (Sura 8 Verse 55).
11. "Jews are apes and swine,"(Sura 2 Verse 65).
12. "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:5
13. "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." Qur'an:8:39
14. "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." Qur'an:8:39
15. "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." Qur'an:9:123
16. "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12
17. "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace." Qur'an 47:33
18. "Do you think you will get away before Allah knows who among you have striven hard and fought?" Qur'an 9:16

And many more.

Welcome To Islamberg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3lxgbamwrk

Islamville, SC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMgkJya5DQ

Islamberg In Upstate New York
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObYpts2MClM

Islamic world domination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqV-CtEVUU

Terrorists training in America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLmmlBr1ec

Muslims of the Americas: In Their Own Words
http://www.adl.org/extremism/moa/default.asp

"kill Geert Wilders" Islamofascist protest in Britain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuAAK032kCA

Quote:
Study: 3 in 4 U.S. mosques preach anti-West extremism

Secret survey exposes widespread radicalism

"An undercover survey of more than 100 mosques and Islamic schools in America has exposed widespread radicalism, including the alarming finding that 3 in 4 Islamic centers are hotbeds of anti-Western extremism, WND has learned [emphasis added].

The Mapping Sharia in America Project, sponsored by the Washington-based Center for Security Policy, has trained former counterintelligence and counterterrorism agents from the FBI, CIA and U.S. military, who are skilled in Arabic and Urdu, to conduct undercover reconnaissance at some 2,300 mosques and Islamic centers and schools across the country.

"So far of 100 mapped, 75 should be on a watchlist," an official familiar with the project said [emphasis added].

Many of the Islamic centers are operating under the auspices of the Saudi Arabian government and U.S. front groups for the radical Muslim Brotherhood based in Egypt.

Frank Gaffney, a former Pentagon official who runs the Center for Security Policy, says the results of the survey have not yet been published. But he confirmed that "the vast majority" are inciting insurrection and jihad through sermons by Saudi-trained imams and anti-Western literature, videos and textbooks.

The project, headed by David Yerushalmi, a lawyer and expert on sharia law, has finished collecting data from the first cohort of 102 mosques and schools. Preliminary findings indicate that almost 80 percent of the group exhibit a high level of sharia-compliance and jihadi threat, including:

Ultra-orthodox worship in which women are separated from men in the prayer hall and must enter the mosque from a separate, usually back, entrance; and are required to wear hijabs.

Sermons that preach women are inferior to men and can be beaten for disobedience; that non-Muslims, particularly Jews, are infidels and inferior to Muslims; that jihad or support of jihad is not only a Muslim's duty but the noblest way, and suicide bombers and other so-called "martyrs" are worthy of the highest praise; and that an Islamic caliphate should one day encompass the U.S. [emphasis added].

Solicitation of financial support for jihad [emphasis added].

Bookstores that sell books, CDs and DVDs promoting jihad and glorifying martyrdom.

Though not all mosques in America are radicalized, many have tended to serve as safe havens and meeting points for Islamic terrorist groups. Experts say there are at least 40 episodes of extremists and terrorists being connected to mosques in the past decade alone.

Some of the 9/11 hijackers, in fact, received aid and counsel from one of the largest mosques in the Washington, D.C., area. Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center is one of the mosques identified by undercover investigators as a hive of terrorist activity and other extremism. [the hijackers were included in a complex ops to pull off 9/11]

It was founded and is currently run by leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. Imams there preach what is called "jihad qital," which means physical jihad, and incite violence and hatred against the U.S.

Dar al-Hijrah's ultimate goal, investigators say, is to turn the U.S. into an Islamic state governed by sharia law [emphasis added].

Another D.C.-area mosque, the ADAMS Center, was founded and financed by members of the Muslim Brotherhood, and has been one of the top distributors of Wahhabist anti-Semitic and anti-Christian dogma.

Even with such radical mosques operating in its backyard, the U.S. government has not undertaken its own systematic investigation of U.S. mosques [emphasis added].

In contrast, European Union security officials are analyzing member-state mosques, examining the training and funding sources of imams, in a large-scale project.

Some U.S. lawmakers want the U.S. to conduct its own investigation.

"We have too many mosques in this country," said Rep. Pete King, R-N.Y. "There are too many people who are sympathetic to radical Islam. We should be looking at them more carefully."


25% of American Muslims support suicide bombings To "Defend Their Religion"

Poll: 1 in 4 U.S. Muslim youths support suicide bombings

25% of Muslim teens: Suicide bombs ok

"One in four" of U.S. Muslims under 30 "say suicide bombings

That's just American Muslims. It's much higher in Muslim countries. That's quite a load of Muslims who would like to see us, the infidel / kafar, dead.

Islamification: an Infidel Warning!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCiGeSbgDbc

The Third Jihad: Cultural War For Sharia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYAflwLeRpI



"What makes Allah happy? Allah is happy when kafars (non-Muslims) get killed. You see the Islamic rule - if a kafar goes into a Muslim country and he's walking by, he's like a cow, anybody could take him. That is the Islamic rule, and this is the opinion of Islam, it's not my opinion, if you read the books of Jihad, you'll see."

- Abu Hamza Al-Masri, starting at 4:00 in the video clip above

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The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:51 am 
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moslem lady wrote:
This is also funny . I am proud of my hijab (vail) .I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.


I don't know what there is to be proud of when one hides behind a sack. IMO, it says you are ashamed of yourself and have low self-esteem. Besides, men want what they don't see even more when they do see it. So you aren't doing yourself any favours. I am a proud U.S. woman who is not afraid to show her belly button even at the age of 43 years AND after having two children. I have no stretch marks and I proud of my figure. I look damn good for a woman of may age. Can't say that for very many other women in the U.S. in their 40s and after having children. Unlike Cher, who is much older, I've had no cosmetic surgery and I still look pretty good. Diet and exercise is all I've had.

There is nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to the human body. In fact, the Greeks apparently thought the human body was a work of art and made quite a few works of art concerning the naked human body. Although I wouldn't go running around naked, but I see no reason to hide behind a "hijab" just to keep men away from you. Any man who acts stupid is of caveman mentality, thinking with something other than the gray matter in their skull. It would be THEIR fault if they acted on such impulses, not mine. Civilized men have more self-control than that, because to do otherwise is primitive.

Word of warning, I don't have much respect for people who hide themselves. If I can't see your face, you can forget about speaking to me, because 1. I won't understand everything you say 2. It would be a complete waste of time to even try 3. What the hell are you hiding? Damn! You could hide a machete in that thing. So why would I want to trust you enough to even come close enough to speak to you, much less respect you? Forget it, sista. If I can't read your lips and see your actions as you are about to do them, you can just forget it. If you want to wear a silly scarf, that is one thing, but a hijab... I am quite leery, esp since I can't see your face in order to understand what you are saying better. Suspicion city right there, esp if I can't get most of what you are saying, but then again, no one knows I'm hard of hearing with an amplifier on my phone or reading a post online, unless I tell them. Still I wouldn't want to speak to you in person. What's the point? Esp since you want to hide behind a sack. I feel sorry for the deaf and hard of hearing around you. Oh but wait, that is a deformative, so I guess you don't have too many people with such issues do you? Not too many people use sign language, wear hearing aides, use adaptive hearing devices, etc. So you don't have a clue about such issues and the other factors that go into them, do you? I bet you haven't spoken with a hearing impaired person either. If you haven't, now you know why.

Thank you, Freethinka for spelling out more issues, besides hiding under a silly gunny sack.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Mrs Mariana;

The Muslim dress code, as you argue, is a form of hiding from society so that I don't have to deal with the realities of my "natural habitat." You seem to be familiar enough with the Western culture to know that women are constantly objectified, used as commodities, tools to sell beer and boost sales for the next football season. Sadly enough, though, you view women who wish to distance themselves from this commercial degradation with fear.
I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense. When I face a classmate or colleague I can be confident that my body is not being scrutinized, my bra-strap or pantyline visible. I have repudiated the perverted values of your society by choosing to assert myself only through my mind. I understand my "natural habitat" ! very well thank you.
Perhaps hijab is so misunderstood because it is prescribed by a religion that makes a bold and shocking statement: Women are precious creatures who have the right to be valued for who they are, and not what they can juggle.
Once you bear something for all to see, the second you display something for its beauty, you objectify it and diminish its value. Because its worth is built on its ability to attract, when it no longer elicits awe from onlookers it becomes worthless. Is it a wonder that neck lines keep plunging every year?- more cleavage means women won't bore oglers, the commercial industries, and the rest of society for awhile. But when will those skirts quit shortening?? For how long will women remain sex objects??
Once you bear something for all to see, the second you display something for its beauty, you objectify it and diminish its value. Because its worth is built on its ability to attract, when it no longer elicits awe from onlookers it becomes worthless. Is it a wonder that neck lines keep plunging every year?- more cleavage means women won't bore oglers, the commercial industries, and the rest of society for awhile. But when will those skirts quit shortening?? For how long will women remain sex objects??
It is the desire to please popular culture that makes 15 year old girls want to fit into Kate Moss's jeans by sticking their fingers down their throats and wretching (throwing up) three times a day. It is the unattainable Perfect-Body society has conjured, that make "fat", "ugly" girls splatter themselves on sidewalks because they just are "not thin and pretty enough". AND THEY TELL ME ISLAM OPPRESSES WOMEN??
I am fortunate that my concerns and goals in life lie on a higher plane than the dictates of a pretty fashion industry. I am quite content with my religion, for it values my power to achieve great things through my mind, not through my body.

Mrs Mariana ;

Did you know...
* If shop mannequins were real women, they'd be too thin to menstruate.
* There are 3 billion women who don't look like supermodels and only eight who do.
* Marilyn Monroe wore a size 14.
* If Barbie was a real woman, she'd have to walk on all fours due to her proportions. The average American woman weighs 144 lbs. and wears between a size 12 and 14. One out of every four college aged women has an eating disorder. The models in the magazines are airbrushed - they're not perfect!!
* A psychological study in 1995 found that three minutes spent looking at models in a fashion magazine caused 70% of women to feel depressed, guilty, and shameful. Models twenty years ago weighed 8% less than the average woman, today they weigh 23% less.

Nothing is further from the truth. The Hijaab is a form of liberation from being treated like a sex symbol. Always remember, hijaabis are judged according to character, not physical appearance and SHE COVERS HER HEAD AND CHEST, NOT HER BRAINS!

When a hijaabi speaks to men, they look into her eyes, not parts of her body. They speak with a respectful tone and they treat her seriously.

the following is a piece from an article courtesy of Impact Magazine;

A World Where Womanhood Reigns Supreme
(The Seeds of My Own Re-evaluations)
by MARY WALKER who was Production Coordinator on the BBC2 series "Living Islam".

By choosing to wear the veil, these women were making a conscious decision to define their role in society and their relationship with men. That relationship appeard to be based more on exchange and mutual respect (a respect that was often lacking in the personal relationships I saw in the West), than the master/servant scenario I had anticipated. The Veil to them signified visual confirmation of their religious commitment, in which men and women were united, and for Zeenah and Fatima an even stronger commitment to a political ideal.

So were my notions of oppression in the form of the veil disqualified? If my definition of equality was free will then I could no longer define that oppression as a symptom of Islam. The women had all excercised their right to choose. To some extent, they were freer than me - I had less control over my destiny. I could no longer point at them and say they were oppressed and I was not. my life was influenced by male approval as theirs - but the element of choice had been taken out of mine. their situations and their arguments had, after all, served to highlight shortcomings in my view of my own liberty.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_supreme.htm

Quote:
it says you are ashamed of yourself and have low self-esteem

i have some questions to you:
1- in the west's ancient times Noble ladies wear long dresses covering all her arms and legs.Were they ashamed of themselves and had low self-esteem?
While those prostitutes who worked in bars wear clothes that expose almost all their bodies.although they were beautiful and well-shaped ,they were treated like trash.
2-my second question is;
why do i see all of you wearing like those prostitutes ?

Quote:
I am a proud U.S. woman who is not afraid to show her belly button even at the age of 43 years AND after having two children. I have no stretch marks and I proud of my figure.

3-If the value of a woman in your ,point of view,is measured by her shape and her not stretched belly button. what will a woman with Deformation,distortion,etc.do?will she shoot herself?

Quote:
If I can't see your face


note; covering the face is not an obligation.

Quote:
If I can't see your face, you can forget about speaking to me, because 1. I won't understand everything you say.If I can't read your lips and see your actions as you are about to do them

so,this means that you don't use the phone.
Quote:
3. What the hell are you hiding? Damn! You could hide a machete in that thing.


oh,i like that one :lol: it reminds me of The Scream :twisted:
Me too' i can't trust you you can hide a pistol in your pocket.and that would be more fatal than a machete.

Quote:
I feel sorry for the deaf and hard of hearing around you. Oh but wait, that is a deformative, so I guess you don't have too many people with such issues do you?


Yes ,we don't have too many deformative people ,thanks to Allah,because we don't drink alcoholic drinks,Commit adultery,and such things that would affect our babies.
in my whole life i met two of them.the first was a blind pupil in my school as a teacher.the second ,a female too,she was deaf. she wanted me to teach her microsoft office .she was eager to learn.i was happy to teach her.i gave her great concern,sometimes ,i had to write my explanation to her .until she passed the course with high marks. i am proud of what i have done.

Islam elevated women to a position of honour and respect


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:51 pm 
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Quote:
Islam elevated women to a position of honour and respect

That is certainly is a popular Islamic talking point but, what happens when you want to go out somewhere by yourself or drive a car? You can't because your independence is not allowed. Nor do women get equal rights in court. That is a liberty not granted. Not much honor or respect in that.

But these are religious and cultural differences that I see no point in arguing which is better here. But, carry on if you must.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:05 pm 
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who said that we don't drive cars? who said that we don't go out by ourselves?

It is also true, however, that in many so called "Islamic" countries, women are not treated according to their God-given rights. But this is not the fault of Islamic ideology but rather the misapplication or sometimes the outright denial of the ideology in these societies.
Much of the practices and laws in "Islamic" countries have deviated from or are totally unrelated to the origins of Islam. Instead many of these practices are based on cultural or traditional customs which have been injected into these societies. For example, in Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive by law. This rule, in a country which is supposed to derive its law from Islamic legislation, is completely an invention of the Saudi monarchy. This horrific rule as well as a host of others are residues of old pre-Islamic tribal traditions where women were not entitled to the same rights as men. As another example, in some "Islamic" countries, many civil laws remain those that were imposed upon them during European colonization. Much of the civil law that legislates personal and family matters in Egypt, for example, is directly based on old French law. As a result, an Egyptian man can divorce his wife much more easily than the reverse. Consequently, women often have to suffer long and expensive court procedures and have to prove that they were mistreated by their husbands before being granted a divorce. Often times, laws in Middle Eastern countries, which are legislated and enforced by men, only take bits and pieces of Islamic law and combine them with concocted rules based upon some cultural or foreign practices.


i have a question to you Mr freethought ; how come we here in Egypt live side by side with Christians? according to your words ;we kill the disbelievers . my neighbor is christian. in my city there is more than ten churches. one of them is about 150 kilometers from here .
we are not allowed to fight them since they are not fighting us;

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Thanks for your reply, moslem lady.
Quote:
moslem lady "who said that we don't drive cars? who said that we don't go out by ourselves?"

Quite a few Muslim women themselves across several Muslim countries are crying out for equality still to this day. Here's just one video -



Quote:
moslem lady "Mr freethought ; how come we here in Egypt live side by side with Christians? "

I guess that's not going so well either, you are probably unaware of these ...

Christian persecution by Muslims on the rise?

Muslim mob attacks Christians in Egypt

Egypt: Muslim gangs rape Christian girls

Islam simply holds a horrendous record for human rights


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The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:35 pm 
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moslem lady wrote:
Mrs Mariana;
I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense.


I don't reject them. I say, if you got it, flaunt it. Of course, being almost flat, I like anything that enhances my chest without surgery.

Quote:
Once you bear something for all to see, the second you display something for its beauty, you objectify it and diminish its value.


No you don't. That is primitive thinking.

Quote:
Because its worth is built on its ability to attract, when it no longer elicits awe from onlookers it becomes worthless.


And that is the point. When one is deprived, they want it even more. When not, they get use to it and it doesn't matter anymore. That is not diminishing it though. It's being a human.


Quote:
Is it a wonder that neck lines keep plunging every year?- more cleavage means women won't bore oglers, the commercial industries, and the rest of society for awhile. But when will those skirts quit shortening?? For how long will women remain sex objects??


You are self-conscious. If you hide it, you will continue to be a sex object.

Quote:
Once you bear something for all to see, the second you display something for its beauty, you objectify it and diminish its value.


And that is a bad thing? Diminishing it's value makes you less of a sex object. Doesn't sound like you appreciate yourself or your body much.

Quote:
Did you know...
* If shop mannequins were real women, they'd be too thin to menstruate.
* There are 3 billion women who don't look like supermodels and only eight who do.
* Marilyn Monroe wore a size 14.
* If Barbie was a real woman, she'd have to walk on all fours due to her proportions. The average American woman weighs 144 lbs. and wears between a size 12 and 14. One out of every four college aged women has an eating disorder. The models in the magazines are airbrushed - they're not perfect!!
* A psychological study in 1995 found that three minutes spent looking at models in a fashion magazine caused 70% of women to feel depressed, guilty, and shameful. Models twenty years ago weighed 8% less than the average woman, today they weigh 23% less.


Yes, I do know this. And why should I care? I don't.

Quote:
Nothing is further from the truth. The Hijaab is a form of liberation from being treated like a sex symbol. Always remember, hijaabis are judged according to character, not physical appearance and SHE COVERS HER HEAD AND CHEST, NOT HER BRAINS!


Actually that is not true at all. Her brains are still there regardless. Only men with cavemen mentality think otherwise and because you hide yourself in a sack, your men stay cavemen and don't evolve mentally.

Quote:
When a hijaabi speaks to men, they look into her eyes, not parts of her body. They speak with a respectful tone and they treat her seriously.


ROFLMAO! You kid yourself. What Imam brainwashed you?

Islam is not better than Xianity. It is a delusion and is nothing but rewritten mythology. Xianity is solar theology and Islam is lunar theology, whether you believe it or not. In many cases, the freaks come out at night and it by the moon/lunar, they have lunacy.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:37 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Quote:
Islam elevated women to a position of honour and respect

That is certainly is a popular Islamic talking point but, what happens when you want to go out somewhere by yourself or drive a car? You can't because your independence is not allowed. Nor do women get equal rights in court. That is a liberty not granted. Not much honor or respect in that.

But these are religious and cultural differences that I see no point in arguing which is better here. But, carry on if you must.


It is also BS that Islam elevated women to a position of honour and respect. No Muslim man respects a woman. You are only fooling yourself.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:39 pm 
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moslem lady wrote:
who said that we don't drive cars? who said that we don't go out by ourselves?

It is also true, however, that in many so called "Islamic" countries, women are not treated according to their God-given rights. But this is not the fault of Islamic ideology but rather the misapplication or sometimes the outright denial of the ideology in these societies.
Much of the practices and laws in "Islamic" countries have deviated from or are totally unrelated to the origins of Islam. Instead many of these practices are based on cultural or traditional customs which have been injected into these societies. For example, in Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive by law. This rule, in a country which is supposed to derive its law from Islamic legislation, is completely an invention of the Saudi monarchy. This horrific rule as well as a host of others are residues of old pre-Islamic tribal traditions where women were not entitled to the same rights as men. As another example, in some "Islamic" countries, many civil laws remain those that were imposed upon them during European colonization. Much of the civil law that legislates personal and family matters in Egypt, for example, is directly based on old French law. As a result, an Egyptian man can divorce his wife much more easily than the reverse. Consequently, women often have to suffer long and expensive court procedures and have to prove that they were mistreated by their husbands before being granted a divorce. Often times, laws in Middle Eastern countries, which are legislated and enforced by men, only take bits and pieces of Islamic law and combine them with concocted rules based upon some cultural or foreign practices.


i have a question to you Mr freethought ; how come we here in Egypt live side by side with Christians? according to your words ;we kill the disbelievers . my neighbor is christian. in my city there is more than ten churches. one of them is about 150 kilometers from here .
we are not allowed to fight them since they are not fighting us;

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"



Oh geeze! She posts like a GD Xian Fundie. Such a post is no different and no, I don't read verses a religious person spews out in a post nor do I listen in RL. Never have and probably never will. I read it for myself and I don't let anyone tell me how think about the verse(s). I think for myself. However, you have an Imam do the thinking for you.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Thanks for your reply, moslem lady.
I guess that's not going so well either, you are probably unaware of these ...

Christian persecution by Muslims on the rise?

Muslim mob attacks Christians in Egypt

Egypt: Muslim gangs rape Christian girls


Oh yes. My Evangelical Fundamentalist mother is always attacking Muslims, at least behind their backs. After all they are not Xians.

Quote:
Islam simply holds a horrendous record for human rights


Quite true. Far worse than Xians. Surely Muslim woman has heard of Dhimmitude? I wonder why people under such conditions don't chose death. Seems the preferable of the two to me.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:50 am 
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Is Allah really a "moon god"?

Muslims do not believe in worshiping idols or moon Gods. Nor any Muslim believes that the reason why the Crescent is the Muslims' symbol on their flag is because Muhammad (peace be upon him) had cut the moon in half with his sword. That is a fabricated lie about Muhammad and Islam. The reason why the Crescent is the symbol on our flag is because we start our fasting month "Ramadan" when the Crescent appears, and we end that month when the full moon appears after 30 or 31 days of the Crescent's appearance. The Crescent is not a holy symbol. Islam doesn't believe in holy idols or symbols to be worshiped! The only holy thing in this world to Muslims is the Noble Quran, GOD's Revelations and Holy Scripture to us. No person is holy and no image nor idol nor symbol is holy either:

"They ask thee Concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs To mark fixed periods of time In (the affairs of) men, And for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter Your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses Through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper. (The Noble Quran, 2:189)"

Note on Noble Verse 2:189: The English translator wrote "enter Your houses from the back". This is a mistranslation, because in Arabic it says: "taato AL-BOUOTA min thohooriha", which literally means "enter THE HOUSES from the back".

So the Noble Verse should read as:

"They ask thee Concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs To mark fixed periods of time In (the affairs of) men, And for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter the houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses Through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper. (The Noble Quran, 2:189)"

But anyway, as we clearly see in the Noble Verse, moon is nothing but a tool used by the Muslims. It is not GOD Almighty to us, nor do we use it in our worship.

If Muhammad split the Moon in half with his sword as some Anti-Islamics claim with their lies, then how in the world would we get a full moon today? and how in the world would the Muslims use the full moon to end the fasting month of Ramadan after the 30 or 31 days of the Crescent's appearance?

Please visit
Reply To Robert Morey's Moon-God Allah Myth: A Look At The Archaeological Evidence
Code:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html


For more information about the "moon god" lie against Islam, please visit:

The moon god lie against Islam.

Code:
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/lordexarkun/Islam/moongod.html


Code:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html


Code:
http://www.waterholes.com/~dennette/1995/islam/2002-01-03.htm


The New Testament itself proves that we don't have to call GOD as "Yahweh" in all languages.


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