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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:57 am 
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Revelation 22:1-2 states: "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (KJV)

Here we have the impossible image of a tree growing on both sides of a river. Analysis of this image against the framework of astrotheology indicates that the reference is to the Milky Way and the zodiac. This is the single clearest demonstration of stellar imagery in the Bible. The Milky Way cuts the zodiac at the signs of Taurus and Scorpio, as shown in this diagram. Here we see the twelve fruits of the tree of life, one for each month, growing on both sides of a river. The Biblical Tree of Life, appearing in Genesis and Revelation, is the zodiac. The Biblical River of the water of life is the Milky Way Galaxy.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:09 am 
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Neat.

Robert Tulip wrote:
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.


That also seems to give a clue to it being a sky phenomenon. Or maybe the throne of God is referring to the horizon, the river flows from there, the son rises from there and so on. Which also brings to mind Horus of the horizon etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:23 pm 
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This discovery also corresponds to what Hancock and Buvaul lay out in the "The Message of The Sphinx" about the Giza necropolis. The Nile mirrors the milky way above and the Pyramids mirror Orion's belt while the cause ways and Sphinx reveal both the minimum and maximum of Orion on the meridian according to precession. As this older astrotheological knowledge filters into Revelation we find the same themes - as above so below. The milky way, the age of Leo-Aquarius and Aquarius-Leo, precession of the equinox etc. That's why it's key to follow what Massey had to say about Revelation as an old Egyptian and Zoroastrian mystery (CC "The Meaning of Revelation"). It seems to have been used by Gnostic's and Judaized and Christianized through that process. I think you've added a very important piece to this puzzle Robert.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Well done Robert!!

Quote:
"...the twelve fruits of the tree of life, one for each month, growing on both sides of a river. The Biblical Tree of Life, appearing in Genesis and Revelation, is the zodiac. The Biblical River of the water of life is the Milky Way Galaxy."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:41 am 
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Some further points to add here. The points where the Milky Way crosses the zodiac, in the constellations of Taurus and Scorpio, are together with Aquarius and Leo the four corners of the zodiac. These four points of the bull, lion, eagle and man are the four creatures of Revelation 7 and Ezekiel and the symbols of the four Evangelists. Looking at the Vedic idea of the cycle of the Yuga between the Golden Age of Knowledge of God and the Iron Age of Ignorance of God, we see that the Milky Way, described in Revelation as the river of the water of life, marks the horizontal axis of the Yuga. The 'fall from grace' of the myth of the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden matches the point where the equinox point crossed the Milky Way in about 4300 BC.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:04 am 
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The writers certainly back dated Genesis for astrotheological, not literal, reasons. They so carefully outline the last two descending world ages in the OT. They pick up again after the beginning of the Common Era and add in the first two ascending world ages ending with the age of Aquarius (the Aquarius-Leo axis). One way or another this anticipation for the second ascending world age of Aquarius-Leo seems to have trickled down from whatever time the Sphinx was carved to the writing of the New Testament allegories. The Lion-Man of the Sphinx becomes symbolized by the "Man carrying a pitcher of water" at the very end of the age by the New Testament writers. "Time, Times, and Half a Time" of Revelation brings it into closer perspective. There's enough evidence to show that the writers were looking forward to the second ascending world age as what they believed will be a significant time of leaving behind the Iron Age of ignorance of God for the journey closer to the Golden Age of Knowledge of God - the age of Aquarius being themed around "knowing".

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Native wrote:
Hi Robert,
Congratulations! I very much agree in your finding!
- Myths of all "watery kind" should firstly be connected to the celestial dimension.
- Noas Ark is sailing on the heavenly waters on Milky Way River - and all the animals represents the Zoodiac.

- For several years I´ve been working with the Milky Way Myths. Feeel very welcome to visit and give feedback on http://www.native-science.net/ where all kind of Milky Way myths and symbols are described.

All the Best from Ivar Nielsen, Denmark
Hello Ivar, thanks for sharing the link to your interesting site. I hope you will be interested in my discussion of the constellation Argo - see Argo, also discussed at http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php ... light=argo

Argo is Noah's Ark, and has numerous intriguing mythological references. It rides high in the sky here in Australia, but sadly is invisible to you in Denmark.

Regards, Robert


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Hey Robert -

I was perusing the attached book, and I thought of you. It seems well done, especially for a self-published book with IUniverse. The author, Dr. Heather Ensworth, has some interesting information regarding the World Tree and the Milky Way. I think you would enjoy reading in this book:

Finding Our Center: An Astrological and Cosmological View of Our Time

Among other things, she discusses the Milky Way as the source of life and the path of the dead (19):

Quote:
The Milky Way was viewed both as the source of life and the place that souls returned to at the time of death.

That notion of the life source would seem to dovetail with your analysis of the biblical "river of water of life" at Revelation 22. From my recent reading of various global Milky Way myths, I'd have to say that you seem to be onto something important. Well done!

Did you create this image?

Image

Let us look more closely at this passage in Revelation 22 (RSV):

Quote:
Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The original Greek:

Quote:
καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι ποταμὸν ὕδατος ζωῆς λαμπρὸν ὡς κρύσταλλον ἐκπορευόμενον ἐκ τοῦ θρόνου τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἀρνίου ἐν μέσῳ τῆς πλατείας αὐτῆς καὶ τοῦ ποταμοῦ ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν ξύλον ζωῆς ποιοῦν καρποὺς δώδεκα κατὰ μῆνα ἕκαστον ἀποδιδοῦν τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ τὰ φύλλα τοῦ ξύλου εἰς θεραπείαν τῶν ἐθνῶν

Here "river of the water of life" is ποταμὸν ὕδατος ζωῆς or potamon hydatos zoes. Most assuredly, millions of Egyptians and, later, Greeks, Romans, et al., perceived the Nile as the "river of the water of life," thousands of years before Revelation was supposedly composed by John of Patmos. Naturally, the biblical text is undoubtedly much older than the purported time of the apostle, although it certainly was worked over during the second century AD/CE.

Moreover, the Nile was identified as the earthly Milky Way, which in turn was the celestial Nile. So, Robert's insight here is certainly apt, especially factoring in the 12 monthly "fruits." It seems like a slam dunk. We haven't discussed the Milky Way much, but this impressive celestial feature was understandably the source of much mythmaking, representing a river, a path, a ladder to heaven, and so on. I can understand the fascination with it.

Of course, the assiduously thorough Gerald Massey has written about the "river of the water of life" (Ancient Egypt, 1.293):

Quote:
The river of the water of life was represented by Eridanus, which can be traced back to its birthplace in the abyss, with the inundation rushing from the southern lakes.

A bit obtuse without all the background, but one could run with the Eridanus identification, since it has also been equated with the Jordan, named after the celestial river, which is the real site of Joshua/Jesus's crossing and Jesus's baptism.

Tree of Life

We also see a reference in this Revelation passage to the "tree of life," recalling the association of the Milky Way with the World Tree. Indeed, some cultures perceived the Milky Way as a tree, with its starry branches extending out in various directions. Interestingly, the Greek in Revelation for "tree of life" is ξύλον ζωῆς or xylon zoes. The word ξύλον xylon is defined by Strong's (G3586) as:

Quote:
1) wood
a) that which is made of wood
1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
3) a fetter, or shackle for the feet
4) a cudgel, stick, staff
2) a tree

This term ξύλον xylon is used 20 times in the New Testament, including as the "tree" upon which Jesus is hung, as mentioned at Acts 5:30:

Quote:
The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

The original Greek:

Quote:
ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων ἡμῶν ἤγειρεν Ἰησοῦν ὃν ὑμεῖς διεχειρίσασθε κρεμάσαντες ἐπὶ ξύλου

The same word is used at Acts 10:39 and 13:39 as well, to describe Jesus's crucifixion. The "Lamb of God" hung on the World Tree - reminds one of the image of Odin hung on the Uggdrasil Tree.

Image

Ophiucus

I am also intrigued by the proximity of Ophiucus in your image, in consideration of the interesting characteristics and attributes in his myth that appear to be paralleled in the story of St. Paul. Quite a celestial and astrotheological party we have going on here.

Image

I'm wondering now about Canaanite/Ugarit myths regarding the Milky Way...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:25 am 
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Acharya wrote:
Hey Robert - I was perusing the attached book, and I thought of you. It seems well done, especially for a self-published book with IUniverse. The author, Dr. Heather Ensworth, has some interesting information regarding the World Tree and the Milky Way. I think you would enjoy reading in this book: Finding Our Center: An Astrological and Cosmological View of Our Time
Hi Acharya, thanks for drawing attention to this thread, and for the link to Dr Ensworth's book. I will read the google extracts.
Quote:
Among other things, she discusses the Milky Way as the source of life and the path of the dead (19):
Quote:
The Milky Way was viewed both as the source of life and the place that souls returned to at the time of death.
That notion of the life source would seem to dovetail with your analysis of the biblical "river of water of life" at Revelation 22. From my recent reading of various global Milky Way myths, I'd have to say that you seem to be onto something important. Well done!
To my analysis it is a simple case that the Gnostic emphasis on observing the natural universe was suppressed by the Deuteronomic Priesthood, and then by Christianity. But natural observation was the entire basis for reverence, so this material had to be included as allegory, such as the Milky Way presented as the river of life and the Zodiac as the Tree of Life.
I have previously discussed this theme elsewhere, but it is worth repeating my view that the presence of the tree of life, Yggdrasil, in the first and last books of the Bible is highly interesting for an astrotheological reading of the cosmology of fall and redemption. When humanity lived in a ‘state of grace’ before the fall, nature was seen as sacred. As the equinox precessed across the Milky Way in about 4000 BC, the rise of property and patriarchy led to an alienation from nature, a fall from grace. The Milky Way is the main cosmic observation marking this event. The twins Castor and Pollux in Gemini are the two cherubim with flaming swords guarding the way back to the tree of life. The appearance of Yggdrasil again at the end of Revelation suggests cosmic redemption as rediscovery of the sanctity of nature.
All of this material bears strong relation to natural cycles that drive long term terrestrial climate. I have previously discussed the relation of mythology to the Milankovitch Cycles of orbital seasons which are the basis of mainstream climate science. The orbital cycle is slightly shorter than the great year because the whole terrestrial orbital ellipse is also slowly spinning each 113,000 years. Precession of the equinox causes a 23,000 year cycle of light and dark, with the galaxy now serving as a sort of horizon for the Great Year seen as a Day of Brahma. The Mayan B’ak’tun at 5125 years is like a cosmic season. We are now reaching the end of the B’ak’tun of autumn and entering the B’ak’tun of winter.
Quote:
Yes I designed that diagram. I have not seen anyone else who has systematically discussed the cosmic ideas in Revelation against a direct observational astronomical perspective. It is a shame, because studying this text from a purely scientific angle can be very informative.

Quote:
…Egyptians and, later, Greeks, Romans, et al., perceived the Nile as the "river of the water of life," thousands of years before Revelation was supposedly composed by John of Patmos. Naturally, the biblical text is undoubtedly much older than the purported time of the apostle, although it certainly was worked over during the second century AD/CE. Moreover, the Nile was identified as the earthly Milky Way, which in turn was the celestial Nile. So, Robert's insight here is certainly apt, especially factoring in the 12 monthly "fruits." It seems like a slam dunk. We haven't discussed the Milky Way much, but this impressive celestial feature was understandably the source of much mythmaking, representing a river, a path, a ladder to heaven, and so on. I can understand the fascination with it.

As I have pointed out previously, the “slam dunk” is that the tree grows on both sides of the river. That does not happen with real trees, so it is an allegory.
The twelve fruits, one for each month, of a tree growing on both sides of a river, match very precisely to the relation between the zodiac and the galaxy. The correlation and causality are so strong that the case is compelling. It really is bizarre that people are unwilling to discuss this topic, so I am very grateful to Acharya for drawing attention to it now. Perhaps people regard it as all too eschatological, and are terrified of any scientific discussion of the apocalypse? Better to talk than die.
Quote:
Of course, the assiduously thorough Gerald Massey has written about the "river of the water of life" (Ancient Egypt, 1.293):
Quote:
The river of the water of life was represented by Eridanus, which can be traced back to its birthplace in the abyss, with the inundation rushing from the southern lakes.

A bit obtuse without all the background, but one could run with the Eridanus identification, since it has also been equated with the Jordan, named after the celestial river, which is the real site of Joshua/Jesus's crossing and Jesus's baptism.
The Eridanus/Jordan etymology looks obvious. But the Milky Way is the main cosmic river. From Egypt you can see the ship Argo rising at the southern end of the river of life at midnight at Christmas. Eridanus is a tiny brook by comparison to the mighty Nile of the Milky Way, just as the Jordan is a trickle. Massey, like all Europeans and North Americans, was blinded by latitude – inability to see the stars as they are seen in Egypt and further south.
Quote:
Tree of Life

We also see a reference in this Revelation passage to the "tree of life," recalling the association of the Milky Way with the World Tree. Indeed, some cultures perceived the Milky Way as a tree, with its starry branches extending out in various directions. ... ξύλον xylon is used 20 times in the New Testament, including as the "tree" upon which Jesus is hung, as mentioned at Acts 5:30:
Quote:
The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
The same word is used at Acts 10:39 and 13:39 as well, to describe Jesus's crucifixion. The "Lamb of God" hung on the World Tree - reminds one of the image of Odin hung on the Uggdrasil Tree. http://freethoughtnation.com/images/sto ... intree.jpg

The four corners of heaven are the four living creatures, Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. These four fixed signs of the zodiac provide the signs of the four evangelists and the meaning of the cosmic cross, with Yggdrasil the tree of life as the zodiac. Taurus and Scorpio are at the intersections of the zodiac and galaxy, while Leo and Aquarius are where the zodiac is seen furthest from the galaxy. These are permanent facts of celestial observation, within human timeframes. The cross is the sky. I noted this in a recent Depiction of the cosmic Christ with the Chi Rho cross as the intersection of the wheels within wheels of the zodiac and galaxy. Yggdrasil holds up Valhalla, with its 540 gates marking a quarter of a zodiac age. All of this material is observational cosmic allegory, and any literalist supernatural beliefs are a degraded misunderstanding of the original high cosmic wisdom.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:40 pm 
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It all begins to fit neatly into place when one has decoded the stars, so to speak? I'm sure you're aware of my chapter in The Christ Conspiracy called "The Meaning of Revelation?" It's all about the astrotheological symbolism in that biblical book, analyzed as a record of the precession of the equinoxes. See the thread here: The Book of Revelation is Egyptian and Zoroastrian.

Believe me, it's a pleasure to be able to exchange such "highfalutin' ideas" with you. I'm delighted that you are thinking along these lines, since you continually come up with very plausible observations. That's apparently a rare skill that I don't encounter very often, except from others in this forum and a few of the folks on my social networks, lists, etc.

Once you begin to think like our global ancestors dating back thousands and tens of thousands of years, as I say, everything falls into place. Studying the sky and then reading such "sacred scriptures" is quite eye-opening, isn't it?

We must also factor into this particular imagery, that of Revelation, the long-standing water monster/dragon mythology dating from at latest Sumerian times and reflected as the beast in that book. Once you know about Tiamat/Marduk and the many other permutations of this story, Revelation is truly revealed!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:53 am 
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Acharya wrote:
It all begins to fit neatly into place when one has decoded the stars, so to speak? I'm sure you're aware of my chapter in The Christ Conspiracy called "The Meaning of Revelation?" It's all about the astrotheological symbolism in that biblical book, analyzed as a record of the precession of the equinoxes. See the thread here: The Book of Revelation is Egyptian and Zoroastrian.
Hi Acharya, yes we had a good exchange on that thread beginning at March 28, 2010. My interest in this material is always to seek maximum rigour. So I am happy if people can find things I say that aren't completely clear, or if I can see phrases others use that could be misinterpreted, or that can be expanded. It should always be about a mutual effort to get to the real underlying meaning, which is quite obviously cosmic, in terms of the observational basis of ancient myth. It is a very fecund area of research, but so beset by false assumptions that getting traction is difficult.
Quote:
Believe me, it's a pleasure to be able to exchange such "highfalutin' ideas" with you. I'm delighted that you are thinking along these lines, since you continually come up with very plausible observations. That's apparently a rare skill that I don't encounter very often, except from others in this forum and a few of the folks on my social networks, lists, etc.
The basic issue is to see precession as the key to a new paradigm. Galileo reputedly said 'but it moves', and the core paradigm shift now requires that we say 'but it wobbles'. This provides an immensely fruitful foundation for understanding the meaning of myth, again placing our human perspective at the center of astronomy, using astronomy to understand how humanity relates to the cosmos through an entirely scientific prism.

In this regard I was somewhat disappointed in the extracts from Heather Ensworth's book Finding our Center - Wisdom from the Stars and Planets in Times of Change. She makes many excellent general points about paradigm shift, and the blindness and risk of the dominant modern paradigm. However, as she goes into detail she makes a number of errors which could readily be used by those of hostile agenda to dismiss her valuable insights. You have plenty of experience with selective quoting to dismiss valid ideas!

For example, Ensworth quotes with approval Walter Cruttenden's binary star theory. This is something I discussed in depth with Walter directly and with astronomers, who flatly dismiss it. The dismissal is based on the observation that lunisolar torque provides a near complete basis for observed precession in line with Newtonian mechanics and exact scientific celestial analysis. Cruttenden has to set lunisolar torque at zero, entirely without basis, to justify his binary star theory, which really is just a claim that precession was explained by Vedic science. It all looks more like religion than science.

Ensworth also raises the relation between linear and cyclic theories of time. This is a big and complex cultural problem, but it is misguided to simply assert that linear theory is wrong - the issue is that the modern linear theory of continual upward progress ignores the whole problem of cyclic return. Cyclic theory should expand on linear theory to formulate a new higher scientific synthesis, it should not cast doubt on established knowledge.

Such seemingly pedantic criticisms help to show why the debate on these topics is so vexed. Those who are sympathetic to new age ideas often have a Manichean type of vision in which modern thought is seen as evil, and new age spirituality is seen as good. Modernists dismiss this entire critique, because new age thought is so often riddled with error, such as Ensworth's use of Cruttenden. Once a few scientific errors are shown in a book of this sort, it makes the more speculative ideas, such as the sentience of the universe, equally easy to dismiss as groundless.

I prefer to argue that science is correct, and that new ideas need to be built upon a scientific framework. For example, the relation between the galaxy and precession is more about how the stars provide markers for terrestrial patterns, like the hands or numbers of a clockface, not Ensworth's claim that the stars cause terrestrial events.
Quote:
Once you begin to think like our global ancestors dating back thousands and tens of thousands of years, as I say, everything falls into place. Studying the sky and then reading such "sacred scriptures" is quite eye-opening, isn't it?
Newton famously said he stood on the shoulders of giants, such as Kepler. Developing a new synthesis of scientific knowledge and ancient insight similarly requires us to stand on the shoulders of giants, recognising the powerful allegorical meaning embedded in myth. The cyclic framework of the seasons and stars has largely been forgotten and suppressed, but it needs to be returned to a central place if we are to understand the meaning of ancient symbols. It is important to recognise where the ancients made mistakes, such as geocentrism, and of course the massive error of patriarchy, embedded for example in the Tenth Commandment that describes women as chattels. Analysing the role of patriarchy, another topic dealt with by Ensworth, is far more complex. She dismisses Plato, apparently because of his association with linear patriarchal thought, without recognising the nuanced analysis of such themes that can often be found in philosophy.

The question of how people thought tens of thousands of years ago is immensely difficult. Ensworth wrongly says homo sapien evolved 40,000 years ago, whereas the best science, for example Oppenheimer's Out of Eden summarised at The Peopling of The World, uses cutting edge genetics to show how we moved out of Africa 85,000 years ago, with advance and retreat driven by the precession of the equinox as the driver of glaciation cycles every 20,000 years or so. Speculation about past Golden Ages has to recognise the findings of archaeology, which has not detected evidence of advanced technology before the Holocene. The Great Pyramid is the primary artifact that indicates the mystery of the past, but our knowledge before historical time is so fragmentary that speculation is very difficult and needs great caution.
Quote:
We must also factor into this particular imagery, that of Revelation, the long-standing water monster/dragon mythology dating from at latest Sumerian times and reflected as the beast in that book. Once you know about Tiamat/Marduk and the many other permutations of this story, Revelation is truly revealed!

You may have seen my comments on the Gnostic Peratae, in which the dragon theme is central, especially the shift of the north celestial pole from the dragon to the bear as the framework for precessional time described in Revelation. I also have discussed precession as the framework for the myth of Jason and the Argonauts. The Babylonian sexagesimal 60 base time system scales up from the second to the great year, indicating that original knowledge of the big structure of time was somehow lost. The Day of Brahma would not have been based on the sexagesimal number 4320 (6x6x6x20) if the ancients did not see the actual speed of precession, since 4320 is one sixth of the conventional estimate of the Great Year. But fitting the pieces of the jigsaw together remains at a very preliminary stage.

The Babylonian God Marduk is variously associated with Jupiter and the Sun. In conversation with Earl Doherty, I noted how the Biblical prophet Amos attacks Moloch, who also is associated with Jupiter. The legacy of hostility to natural spirituality is deeply entrenched in the Judeo-Christian tradition.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Lots of good things here, Robert. Sorry you were disappointed with the book I recommended - I had only scanned it, obviously. Cruttenden and I have crossed swords because of his insistence that all these mythical figures of astrotheology were "real people." I haven't given his theories much weight, except that he had some interesting insights into the possible astronomical relevance of the figures at Gobekli Tepe.

You might want to take a look at them for any insights. The "fox" figure could be a constellation, such as the much later Latin named Vulpecula, and so on. One would have to search through the most ancient extant texts for clues as to the earliest constellations and their possible symbolism, and see if any of them are at Gobekli Tepe.

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"Monolith with bull, fox, and crane in low relief"

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:26 am 
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It is difficult for an author such as Ensworth who has not focussed on the astronomy to assess the merits of a charlatan like Cruttenden. I liked most of Ensworth's views, and her broad perspective, but all this good analysis can be easily dismissed by those of hostile intent if they can pick holes in her facts.

There is much to be said for peer review of such work. Unfortunately Ensworth may well have bad experience of peer review as antagonistic to her broader ideas, since science has little interest in the mythology of precession.

Her comment on the importance of cyclic ideas of time is a legitimate perspective. I wanted to emphasise that this dichotomy is complex, and that a dogmatic stance of cyclic=good, linear=bad is too simple.


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