Freethought Nation

presented by Acharya S and TruthBeKnown.com, online since 1995

It is currently Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:35 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


hello

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:03 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
Oh, so you were well onto precession before Robert posted his initial thread. That makes sense because if saw ZG and read through Acharya's work then you would have been familiar the bible outlining three world ages while forshadowing a fourth yet to come. What comes in behind that is the Yuga cycles imposed over the great year. My introduction to the Yugas came mostly from John West and Walter Cruttenden. That was something I was exploring before ZG came out. And when Robert came here the setting was right for delving into deeper connections.

MP Hall actually outlines the loaves and fishes allegory in his astrotheology audio lectures. This something that has been known in esoteric circles. But Robert has certainly focused in very closely on this particular precession allegory and added quite a bit of depth to it compared to anything I've heard elsewhere. You don't get this type depth with Hall, just a brief mention to point out the correspondence between known astrological symbolism and the arrangement of the loaves and fishes miracle. And this is certainly unique in comparison to what we find on most atheist and skeptical forums. I think that one of the most imporant connections to make is the link between the first and second coming and zodiacal Great Year and the actual meridian observations. Here we have a reasonable explanation for the inclusion of a first and second coming allegory.

Pisces starts off the Great Year in the post Egyptian era, and the stellar maximum has not been reached yet. The loaves and fishes allegory sets he stage for what comes up at Luke 22:10. The age of Pisces is introduced as the beginning of the Great Year right as the story is setting up for the crucifixion, which will mark the beginning of the Great Year when it arrives. So here we can see Jesus as acting in the last year of the age of Aries trying to alert people as to what's about to happen after the coming of the next vernal equinox. And they don't understand. Then as the storyline draws nearer to the vernal equinox Jesus tells the disciples to follow the water bearer into the upper room, which serves to outline the last vernal equinox ahead during the next age of Pisces. The foreshadowing of the fourth age to come along with associating the second age with the second coming corresponds to the age in which the observation of the stellar meridian maximum is reached and the earths wobble will make an abrupt shift in the opposite direction. And so the forces of light abruptly over power the forces of darkness in the allegory.

Hands down this is the very forefront of astrotheological speculation: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3339 And you've been observing the process of getting it down to this. I've been looking for the real significance of including the age of Aquarius in the allegory at all. And the answer has been slowly revealing itself over time piece by piece. We are actually on the cutting edge here in these forums which is evident when browsing around through others. At some point much of this speculation is going to need to be published. But there's still more of the allegory yet to penetrate. We have fragmentary understandings that point to an overall picture, but there are more details to understand yet. For instance, the significance of the post millennium era final battle with the Beast, False Prophet, and Dragon which comes over a thousand years after the stellar maximum has been reached at the beginning of Aquarius. The writers must have been pointing to something astronomical in particular which follows behind the stellar maximum (the last time - opposite Zep Tepi) having been reached. The New Jerusalem comes down after that as well. So these parts of the story need to be viewed against what is happening with the earths axial wobble at those time periods and what observations can be made in the sky during that time frame...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:43 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
Understanding the astrotheological allegory has to set the Bible within the mystery traditions. I'm now reading Thoth - Architect of the Universe by Ralph Ellis. He quotes The Egyptian Hermes as saying Thoth "understood the mysteries of the heavens, and revealed them by inscribing them in sacred books... intending that they should be searched for by future generations". So we have this major tradition that claims a secret code is inserted in sacred books, eg the Bible, to explain the mysteries of the heavens. Budge says Thoth was called "he who reckons in heaven, the counter of the stars, the enumerator of the Earth." What else is the reckoning of heaven but the measurement of the Great Year? The role of the scholars of Thoth in placing a set of strategic references to the Great Year in the Bible is confirmed as more than mythic fantasy because of its internal coherence as an explanation, but also by the extraordinary existence of the Great Pyramids. These objects, arising without precedent or explanation on our planet, point to a high ancient wisdom, encoding the mathematics of precession.

How I imagine the relation between Pisces and Aquarius in the cycle of the Great Year relates to the Yuga allegory of the Great Year as a single day. If we consider 'midday' as the middle of the Vedic Golden Age (~13,000 BC/AD), and 'midnight' as the middle of the Iron Age (~500 AD), then dawn and dusk are the times when the equinoxes precess across the Milky Way, in Gemini and Sagittarius. Because the Milky Way is a band up to 20 degrees of arc across (see picture), the midnight of the allegory, the moment when the day cycle begins its slow shift back towards light, corresponds to a range of dates across the Age of Pisces. If we regard the moment when the equinox touched the Milky Way back in the Age of Gemini as the 'dusk' moment of the Great Year, then the 'midnight' moment is close to the Vedic middle of the Iron Age. If we see the 'dusk' moment as the time when the equinox cleared the Milky Way and entered Taurus, then the dawn of the Age of Aquarius becomes the 'midnight' moment. So, the Age of Pisces/Virgo, the time of analytical belief, is an Age of flux, preparing the resources for ascent in the Age of Aquarius/Leo, the time of knowledge and will. The story of Christ at the dawn of the Age of Pisces is a sort of Cassandra moment for the planet, when an explanation was provided but not understood. The understanding of the explanation has to wait until people are ready, when the story has reached the whole planet as per Matthew 24:11.

What this suggests is a cascading series of events to mark the turn of the Great Year cycle from descent to ascent. At present, we are trending towards extinction through the stupid accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere. A paradigm shift is required to avert a catastrophe of the scale of the Permian extinction, and set humanity back on an upward path. The sacred texts of the Great Year encode a vision of how humanity can be saved from destruction, but the problem is whether we will see the path forward before it is too late.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:10 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
The debate continues...
stahrwe wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
While I appreciate that readers may get bored with the circular nature of conversation with Stahrwe, we still have the stumbling block of rival explanations of the miracle of the loaves and fishes. Stahrwe says God breaks the laws of physics, contrary to all observed events. I say the Bible has a hidden cosmic meaning, heavily suppressed by orthodoxy. The reason why there is no explicit astrotheology in the Bible is that any such content that may have been in source documents has been removed by dogmatic censors. The scale of Christian destruction of pagan wisdom was immense. Why would they leave anything in their own text that explicitly supported the pagan view? It appears the original authors thought the best and possibly only way such knowledge could be transmitted to future generations was in code. The authors knew that a cosmic Christ could not become the basis of a world religion, so they altered the real cosmic meaning just enough to pass the hurdle of popular acceptance, turning a parable about the Great Year into the miracle of the feeding of the 5000.


You don't need an editorial introduction which is just a veiled swipe. The fact is they are not rival explanations of the loaves and fishes as that implies that the explanations have equal merit. My explanation is essentially a presentation of what the Bible says they are, yours is wild speculation. Once again you resort to conspiracy theory to justy the lack of documentary support for your argument. Your Waterloo is where you state, "The authors knew that a cosmic Christ could not become the basis of a world religion..." How did they know that? Why couldn't it? They certainly faced tremendous opposition in presenting the Christ they did. How would presenting a cosmic Christ have been any harder? In fact it is likely it would have been easier as it tied into existing mythologies. I have been accused of making things up as I go along. I don't accuse you of that but somebody did and convinced you. It just doesn't make sense. The early church, composed of Jews, reached into the very heart of what Judaism was all about, turned it inside out and opened it up to Jews, gentiles and even Greeks*. Given the ambition represented by that a cosmic Christ would have been a piece of cake.

*few people reading BT can appreciate how radical including the Greeks in the first century was to Jews.

Robert tulip wrote:
On the Jewish Encyclopedia question, I gave a link to the source of the Roman Catholic website Fish Eaters: Precious Stones of Sacred Scripture


Not exactly an unbiased source are they? Roman Catholocism has always had the ability to absorb other beliefs into its motif of Christianity. Fish Eaters does that with astrotheology. Why not shed the Murdock habit and go to the source, the actual Jewish encyclopedia to see what it says about the breastplate? We know the reason don't we? It doesn't support your story. See my earlier post which is from the Jewish encyclopedia

robert tulip wrote:
I have noticed that our modern book burners are rather efficient in eliminating material that they see as heresy. It does not surprise me at all that versions of texts can be found that censor such references.


Modern book burners? Who? What has been eliminated? I have a collection of Heterodoxy (Holy Blood Holy Grail, The Tomb of God, Serpents in the Manger, The Passover Plot, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Messianic Legacy of Hitler) Honestly, I welcome you promoting Murdock as far and wide as possible because I believe the more exposure it gets the quicker it will fall away on its own.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:58 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
Robert Tulip wrote:
Stahrwe says God breaks the laws of physics, contrary to all observed events. I say the Bible has a hidden cosmic meaning, heavily suppressed by orthodoxy.

This is hilarious! :lol:

Oh no, the loaves and fishes have nothing to do with astrological symbolism. The story is about a real supernatural God-Man that sent himself to the earth through a virgin womb, so that he could make miracles in the sight of all the people, and then sacrifice himself to himself and rise up again from the dead only to shoot off into the sky with a promise of returning again some day in the future.

Stahrwe wrote:
The fact is they are not rival explanations of the loaves and fishes as that implies that the explanations have equal merit. My explanation is essentially a presentation of what the Bible says they are, yours is wild speculation.

Oh, so they don't have equal merit?

I agree. In fact there is no evidence at all for the supernatural miracle ever taking place in history. No documentation at all, which is odd considering the size of the two different crowds on two separate occasions. But on the other hand there is a slew of evidence that this story uses known astrotheological symbolism with it's use of the sacred numbers 12 and 7 - the zodiac and the visible celestial orbs known to the ancients, the Jews in particular. And the story is set to the time frame of the beginning of the common era fixing it squarely to the age of the two fishes and Virgo (wheat) axis. What the Bible actually says has to do with an allegorical set of symbolism given in the Bible, speculation is to get off assuming that this symbolism refers to a literal historical fact, for which there isn't one shred of evidence to substaniate it. So yes, only one of these two rival explanations of the loaves and fishes has any merrit to begin with, and it's the astrotheological reading of course.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:19 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
stahrwe wrote:
you finally got it right that the loaves and fishes were only loaves and fishes and that the only thing His followers did not undserstand was His power. The idea that there was some hidden meaning related to Great Years and Equinoxes is indefensible. Out of curiosity, was there anyone in the first century who would have understood that concept?


Hello again Stahrwe, you have misread my comment. I am saying the loaves and fishes are allegories for stars and planets. I will soon start a new thread on Stars in the Bible as this goes beyond the topic here of the miracles of Jesus and presents the basis for a major paradigm shift in Biblical studies.

The question of when the Great Year was first understood is highly controversial. Orthodox opinion holds that the Great Year was discovered by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus in about 150 BC when he compared the observed position of the star Spica in Virgo to the position marked on old Babylonian star charts. However, an alternate view, in my opinion the truth, is that the Great Year was a central theme for esoteric wisdom in the ancient world, but was communicated only by secret oral tradition within mystery societies. This is the view advanced by writers such as WB Yeats in his book A Vision, by HP Blavatsky in The Secret Doctrine, by D Ulansey in The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries, and by Ralph Ellis in Thoth - Architect of the Universe, among others. The secret oral traditions of the mysteries proved vulnerable to extinction when pagan star wisdom was targeted for destruction by Christianity. Hence we only have fragmentary sources for this hypothesis, including, as I now assert, consistent coded references in the Bible. This claim of a lost wisdom of the Great Year is consistent with the evidence, while conventional Christianity is totally inconsistent with evidence, as it depends on literal reading of impossible miraculous tales. It is rather absurd to claim that Egypt and Babylon worshiped the stars for millennia and built highly accurate stone star clocks, but did not notice precession and had to be told of it by the later piratical slave empire of Greece.

I think what we cannot easily comprehend is the depth of racism that informed the Greco-Roman world, with its use of 'barbarian' to describe all the ancient civilizations whose language sounded like 'bar bar'. The racist European attitude held that other cultures were stupid and inferior and deserved only to be slaves, so barbarian ideas were not worth listening to. However, Plato disagreed, expressing high deference towards Egyptian wisdom, and we have the great mystery of how the so-called primitive savages of Egypt built the great pyramids, feats of architecture that remain unrivalled in their technical accomplishment and astronomical insight.

I mention this problem of European racism because it continues to inform orthodox Christian theology, which arrogantly sets itself above nature and above all cultures who recognise that humanity lives within nature. The claim that Jesus performed miracles is intrinsically racist and false in its historic application, demeaning the true ancient wisdom that sees miracles as allegories for deep natural truth.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:34 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
Stahrwe wrote:
you finally got it right that the loaves and fishes were only loaves and fishes and that the only thing His followers did not undserstand was His power. The idea that there was some hidden meaning related to Great Years and Equinoxes is indefensible. Out of curiosity, was there anyone in the first century who would have understood that concept?

First off, this guy's about the biggest idiot I've run into on the web. I think he's beyond the idiocy of even GreekOrthodoxy, or at least neck and neck in any case. :lol:

Now I'm going to post some information that I brought to your attention in the past concerning the antiquity of the seven loaves theme and how it actually constitutes an ancient mystery pertaining specifically to the heavens. Let's start with the Egyptian sources first:
Quote:
The Bread of Life

“Isis’s son, Horus, also was a miracle maker, healer, and raiser of the dead, like his much later Jewish counterpart, Jesus. For example, one of the favorite miracles in the gospels is when Jesus multiplies the loaves of bread. (Mk 6:41; 8:6) Like Jesus, however, Horus too miraculously brings forth bread, making this Johny-come-lately Christian miracle mundane and derivative. Bread, in fact, plays a major part in the Book of Dead (e.g., BD 53), in which the Osiris says, among other things, “I eat bread from the house of the Lord of offerings.” [It should be noted that preceding this passage the Osiris says, “I am the Lord of the Bread in Annu.” (Bunsen/ Birch, 202)] Indeed, bread was so sacred to the Egyptians that at PT 508:1113c-1117, the deceased, essentially as Horus, “propitiated” the gods with it. Also, at PT 338:551d/T 148, reference is made to the “bread of Horus” or the “wheat of Horus,” by means of which the Osiris will not go hungry. At PT 468: 905a-b, the Osiris receives bread and beer from Horus, like Jesus presenting the disciples with bread and wine (Mt 26:26-28).
In the gospels of Matthew (15:34, 36; 16:10) and Mark (8:5-6) much is made about Jesus multiplying the seven loaves of bread. Meanwhile, centuries to millennia earlier, a similar fuss occurred over the “seven loaves” in the book of the Dead, as in chapter 53b:


Quote:
“There are seven loaves in Heaven at Heliopolis with Ra, and there are seven loaves upon earth with Seb [Osiris’s father], and there are seven loaves with Osiris.”


Quote:
In BD 52, we find that it is Horus who “makes” these seven loaves:

“Thou hast brought these seven loaves for me to live by, bringing the bread that Horus makes.”

The seven loaves are also mentioned in BD 189:

“I live on the 7 loaves brought to me: (4) loaves by Horus, 3 loaves by Thoth.”


Quote:
The Coffin Texts also speak of the seven loaves in various places, such as at CT Sp. 166, which again associates “four loaves on earth” with Horus, while CT Sp. 772 mentions the “seven loaves [which] are with Horus and Seth.”
As we can see, this motif of a savior god with seven loaves of bread is very old and pre-christian, emphasized in important Egyptian texts, such that a significant number of people undoubtedly had it in mind by the time Christianity was created. - "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection"


So obviously there were priests who understood this theme as of the first century and ealier. I then compared the Seven Loaves of Horus to a comparative study of the ancient astrotheological "mystery of five and seven" - referring to the visible celestial orbs which makes it plainly clear that the seven loaves is an astrotheological reference in the case of both Horus and Jesus and not literal loaves of bread by any stretch of the imagination:

Quote:
Astrotheology series: The Planets and Ancient Gods

…for instance we begin our problem this evening with the problem, or study, of the seven deities, or as Plutarch referred to the mystery, the seven rayed god. Why was the seven so vastly significant a number in ancient times? How does it happen that this number coincides with what the ancients saw consisting of five planets we know today and two luminaries? These seven bodies in peculiarly close relationship to the earth, and appearing to move around it, have for the longest period that we know been highly symbolical and highly significant in relation to theology. These seven wanderers, these seven planets - by the Egyptians, by the Persians, the Hindus, the Chinese, the Greeks, and many other peoples, particularly perhaps even the Babylonians – these seven planets were always identified with seven deities. These seven deities in all these different groups divided and organized themselves in practically the same patterns. And the powers of these deities regardless of the names by which they were known were identical. Thus the number seven comes to us with a tremendous, and almost awe inspiring, pressure of validity.

…now the Chinese Emperors for at least two thousand five hundred years, have celebrated the mystery of the five old men. They were definitely and distinctly the planets. These same Chinese people also intimated two mystery gods that were concealed behind other symbols. Perhaps these mystery gods were the two planets that were later to be discovered – Uranus and Neptune – concealed beneath the symbolism of the sun and moon…

…but we also know that in the Buddhist doctrine there were seven primary Buddhistic powers. These seven - the great eternal bodhisattvas - are never represented, however, in their fullness. We have only five. Like the five old men of China we have the mention of seven…but we only have the pictorial presentation of five arranged in the form of a hallow square with the fifth in the center.

Now the Greeks had the same sub diffuse of using five and two in a very strange combination. …the seven planetary gods were the vowels or the seven powers of sound. Is it not interesting therefore that we are still having trouble with our seven vowels - we only recognize five.

…follows the old belief that man has seven senses, but we can only find five. Again two concealed. And we are told these two concealed sensory perceptions relate to the extra sensory gamete, or perceptions that are as yet in potential but not yet in potency in the life of the average human being. Thus we have a series of strange fives that fall short of seven. – Manly P. Hall


I then pulled up all of the bible verses in question which go over a series of strange fives that fall short of seven - in keeping with this ancient mystery tradition - as well as the inclusion of the seven in another telling of the story which is also in keeping with this ancient mystery tradition of sometimes alluding to five (planets) and other times alluding to all seven (planets and luminaries):

Quote:
Matthew 14: 17 “We have only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered. 20) They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. (five thousand)

Matthew 15:34 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked. “Seven,” they replied, “And a few small fish”. 37) They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces. (four thousand)


Quote:
Mark 6:38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go out and see.” When they found out, they said, “Five and two fish.” 43) and the disciples picked up 12 basketfuls broken pieces of bread and fish. (five thousand)

Mark 8:5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked. “Seven,” they replied. 7) They had a few small fish as well. 8) The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls that were left over. (four thousand)


Quote:
Luke 9:13 He replied, “You give them something to eat.” They answered, “We have only five loaves of bread and two fish – unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.” 17) They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls that were left over. (five thousand)


Quote:
John 6:9 ”Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?” 13) So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten. (five thousand)


Stahrwe's questions reveal his ignorance on the subject...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:24 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
Thanks Tat, this is all very clear. I agree with your assessment of our fundamentalist friend, and earlier commented that he is Booktalk's resident idiot. Where I find the discussion worthwhile is that most fundamentalists do not dream that they can engage in discussion of logic and coherence with modern rational people, and instead only talk to each other to reinforce their error, so Stahrwe's efforts at conversion make him an extraordinary case. His contorted and deceptive arguments are informative for the efforts required to sustain an old paradigm, rather like the church holding to Ptolemy's epicycles after the time of Galileo.

The political issue with this material is that about forty percent of Americans are reported to believe the world is less than ten thousand years old, and this social group has a dominant role in the Republican Party, with links to Israel and the military. I suspect that the wrong opinion of most of this 40% of Americans is soft, ie they would be open to receiving true information. However, there is this hard core of inerrists who in my estimation are the most dangerous group of people in the world today, the real false prophets, who insist in Orwellian fashion that lies are truth. Billy Graham was a great inspiration to this large clique with his statement that early in his life he resolved never to allow any chink of doubt about holy scripture to enter his head, but instead to maintain total faith.

I participate in a Bible study group with some friends from my church. We are studying Revelation, but are using a guide prepared by an inerrist. I have not raised my astrotheological views with the group, as I think they would find them too shocking, although I did give a talk on the twelve jewels at church. In my experience the intensity of Christian brainwashing is so heavy that older believers find a challenge to their paradigm to be very emotionally confronting, so they tolerate me while avoiding any chance to discuss my views. Anyway, this Bible study guide we read last week compared the Last Judgment in Matthew 25 with Israel, explicitly saying the sheep are the Jews and their friends. I pointed out there is no Biblical basis for this Zionist fundamentalism, and others in the discussion agreed. I raise this just to point out how such false teaching can readily be inserted in Bible studies that are widely influential.

Relevance to the loaves and fishes is that Christian brainwashing starts from a simple premise, "Jesus saves" and builds a whole edifice of thought on these feet of clay. Where an empirical observation, eg that the miracle is an astrotheological allegory, is incompatible with their tottering edifice, they simply program the facts out of the realms of possibility. Their system of ideas has the appearance of internal consistency as long as it is not compared to reality. It is no wonder crazy ideas like Scientology are so popular in the USA when their empirical basis is equally flawed as traditional Christianity.

Creationism is actually derived from Paul's line at Romans 5:19 "through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Traditional reading of this text requires that Adam and Christ are historical men, as the entire basis of human salvation. This is part of what I call the "citadel of faith", while YEC etc is the "outer rampart". Fundamentalists skirmish with atheists at locations far from their central concern of the doctrine of salvation by diversionary tactics such as intelligent design. Meanwhile, astrotheology is undermining the citadel. A main error of atheists, in my opinion, is to consider the whole Bible as meaningless rubbish just because fundamentalism is so stupid. Rather, as per our discussions here of the loaves and fishes, it is better to look for a kernel of wisdom in the text that is compatible with rational empirical knowledge, in a way that removes the internal coherence of traditional systematic theology.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:14 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
Quote:
Romans 5:19 "through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous".

This makes perfect sense along side the Great Year model. The one man is placed in Taurus where the whole earth is falling into the darkest period of time. It's a descent, a fall of spiritual awareness according ancient lore. So many were made sinners by the one man who represents this fall into dark times.

On the other hand another man is presented to symbolize the way out of the darkest times who is placed at the very bottom of the four darkest world ages. He represents the Piscean age and speaks of the significance of the coming of this current age very clearly in the parable of the loaves and fishes.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:10 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
@#12, Bobby Garringer wrote “[Robert Tulip claimed] the presence of enigmatic wording in a story indicates that the author did not think he was writing about something that really happened”

The reasons to read the loaves and fishes miracle stories as allegorical parables rather than as “something that really happened” are deeper than either their enigmatic wording or their Old Testament Midrash, important as both these are. For a start, miracles are scientifically impossible. Claims that Jesus broke the laws of physics are implausible, to put it politely. But further, this story fits within a concealed Gospel picture of Jesus as purely heavenly, a picture in which the miracles are parables with a hidden meaning. By this reading, the earthly descriptions are imaginative fiction designed to illustrate the symbolic nature of the heavenly Christ through myth.

The purely heavenly Christ provides an imagined framework of connection between humanity and eternity. This framework is too abstract while Christ is understood as purely in heaven, and so was bolstered by the fictional historical stories of Jesus in the Gospels, stories which proved to have immense emotional resonance for believers. With the loaves and fishes story, the heavenly tradition of the eternal Christ entwines with the more popularly accessible claim that Mark is relating a simple belief in a supernatural miracle performed by an actual historical man Jesus. The loaves and fishes miracle, when analysed carefully, more plausibly describes a heavenly Christ than historic events.

Mark was a brilliant genius, perhaps the greatest novelist in all history, since so many have believed his fiction is fact. Mark was actually a naturalist, presenting symbolic images to illustrate a real natural vision. The real meaning of his loaves and fishes story is hidden by the power of the allegorical image, and was largely lost in the political sands of orthodoxy as his fable of Jesus Christ became the central story of Western Civilization.

The symbolic content of the loaves and fishes story can be explored against a decisive text for this natural theology in Mark’s Gospel, where Christ explains his secret method. Mark 4:34 says “Jesus did not say anything to the public without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.” It appears Mark is implying that everything attributed to Jesus in public is symbolic. Against this general statement of method about everything Jesus said, the miracle stories would appear to have a primarily symbolic rather than literal intent.

This allegorical key to the Gospels is expanded at Matthew 13:10-15, in text partly repeated at Luke 8:10. Matthew tells us “the disciples asked Him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered, “To you it has been granted to know (γνῶναι) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”

Matthew has Jesus invoke the mysterious concept of “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” as the object of secret knowledge and source of abundance. This text links to the loaves and fishes at several levels, especially its allusion to the multiplication of entities and its condemnation of failure to understand. This invocation of a secret community who know the mysteries can be interpreted as describing the clash between Gnostic wisdom and orthodox failure to understand, given by Jesus as the primary explanation for why he always speaks to the public in symbolic language. The Gnostic description of the disciples is rather like Paul’s discussion of initiates as pneumatic or spiritual. The public, by contrast, Christ describes as stupid, blind and deaf (like the Gnostic critique of the materialist or hylic) while he calls the initiated disciples the knowers. With Jesus making such an arrogant dismissal of the intelligence and capacity of ordinary people, it is hardly surprising the Gospels tell us Jesus was crucified for claiming to bear witness to the truth.

This heavenly picture of Jesus is complex, elitist and disturbing. The synoptic claim that everything Jesus said in public is a parable is complex - asserting a sharp divide between appearance and reality, elitist - setting this complex claim within an assertion that his secret society alone understands the truth, and disturbing – presenting a claim repeated in all the synoptics that literally suggests that none of Jesus’ public utterances can be taken literally.

Jesus expands his arrogant elitist derision towards ordinary people by claiming that his central teaching is that those who have a lot will get even more. This summarises the highly controversial Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25), which these days tends to be rejected by many Christians in its literal form as promoting a capitalist vision of inequality that sits uneasily with Christian love. Matthew 13:11 uses this ‘Matthew Principle’ of abundance from talent to explain why Jesus Christ speaks in a secret mystery code to the general public.

The biggest open claim described during the ministry of Christ is the miracle of the loaves and fishes. This story, repeated six times across the four gospels, fits well in this symbolic heuristic of secrecy and allegory. The same secret mystery code can help explain other Gospel claims of the source of abundance, such as faith moving mountains and growing to big trees. The two loaves and five fish miraculously feed 4000 and 5000 men (plus women and children), a feat explained at Mark 6:41 as a result of Jesus looking up to heaven. Some might even ask what the two plus five in the visible heavens might be.

The direct explanation given by the Bible of why Jesus speaks in symbolic language is that most people are too stupid to understand reality except through symbolic stories. The most plausible explanation is that the whole story of Jesus, pre-existence, birth, life, miracles, parables, family, passion, resurrection, ascension and second coming, is intended as allegory for a secret wisdom which was understood by Gnostic initiates but not by the hylic ignorant. Against this reading, early church interpretation of the Gospels gradually shifted from an enlightened understanding that the miracles were parables to a degraded assumption that the miracles were literal history.

This shift from an original gnostic reading to a derivative orthodox reading has a simple explanation. The literal reading was more accessible and attractive to the ignorant masses, so the successful group within the church was the faction who allied with the powerful external social forces who took no interest in theological niceties but wanted a simple common faith. This cultural war between Gnostic initiates and hylic ignorami stands at the origin of the Gospel story of Jesus, and is reflected in the frequent cryptic messages which indicate the frustration of the Gnostic authors at the general failure of comprehension, as in the explanation of the loaves and fishes at Mark 8 where Jesus castigates even the disciples for their thickness.

Another such explanation is at John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking in parables, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.” This statement by Jesus can be read as a condemnation of the entirety of orthodox theology: the prevalent supernatural interpretation is false, and the Gospels will only make sense when we learn to read them according to purely natural scientific and historical methods, understanding that all the miracle stories such as the feeding of the multitude are actually parables.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:05 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
Miracles are not possible. The stories did not actually originate in history from real observation of a person breaking the law of physics. Anyone who says miracles are possible is a kook.

But we should not just assume that the Gospel authors were stupid liars out to deceive their readers or gullible rehashers of hearsay. It is more likely that they wanted to use these imaginative miracle stories to illustrate a deeper truth understood by Gnostic initiates. Therefore the actual meaning of the miracle stories is different from the conventional kooky religious belief that God intervenes in nature.

Reality is well described by science. The idea that miracles can occur is a degraded form of consciousness. The religious pretense that the world is not as understood by science is a retarding force for human progress towards reason and enlightenment.

And yet, the convention of scientific enlightenment typified by President Jefferson's scissors (used to cut all the miracles out of his Bible) also reflects an inadequate understanding. Rather than ignore the miracle stories we should read them as concealing a hidden secret mysterious Gnostic meaning.

We should therefore read miracle stories as seeking to convey lessons as concealed allegory. The loaves and fishes is an excellent example, as are the resurrection stories of Lazarus and Christ. These are not conjuring stunts or demonstrations of an actual magical power of God, they are metaphors.

The Gospels may contain lies and hearsay. I am not simply rejecting those possibilities. My point is that to assume these explanations is prejudicial against a more poetic reading. If we assume that in fact the false literal stories in the Gospels must be lies or hearsay, we rule out the possibility that the miracles are primarily a form of poetic allegory concealing meaningful observations and understanding.

What is not possible from a modern scientific viewpoint is that the Gospel miracles provide an accurate description of real historical events. Descriptions of events that conflict with our modern scientific knowledge can be ruled out as not being literal truth. We should assume that miracles are impossible, as a matter of sound rational method and a practical heuristic. But it is too hasty to jump from this scientific observation to the assumption that the Gospel authors were just hucksters or fools. Deconstructing the tradition may yet provide space to reconstruct a meaningful subtext.

My view is that the role of ancient secret mystery cults in producing the Bible has been severely underestimated and dismissed in conventional debate, due to the aggressive suppression of these groups by orthodox Christianity, the ongoing intimidation of scholars by Christianity, and the failure of historians to take a serious scientific and philosophical interest in such topics.

For example, Pythagoreans and Mithraists placed strong emphasis on secrecy and oral transmission of cultic belief. If these groups, and others such as the mysteries of Eleusis, the Therapeuts of Alexandria, the Nazarenes, the Chaldeans, etc, were part of a secret Gnostic milieu, they must have had ways of understanding spiritual teachings, including those contained in the Bible, that were lost by the suppression of their oral traditions. This is a line of enquiry that is fruitfully explored in books such as The Gnostic Paul by Elaine Pagels, The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy, and The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S.

These ancient groups maintained a distinction between public and secret teachings. This distinction is explained in the Gospel injunctions attributed to Jesus about his public teachings all being parables. The idea of secret teachings, known from Aristotle's school as esoteric or within the school, is often dismissed by both science and religion today as tarred with the brush of magic. However, the term esoteric has changed in meaning, just as occult has morphed in meaning from hidden to magical.

Previously just meaning private, ‘esoteric’ has now become a term of derision, associated with magical mysteries and groundless speculation. And Aristotle’s distinction between esoteric and exoteric or public teaching has lost its force, since science no longer has the ancient need to conceal its work.

What could the hidden teaching concealed in miracles contain? I suggest a central part of the ancient esoteric teaching related to cosmology. Ancient wisdom traditions were intimately involved with astronomy, as seen for example in Babylonian star records. Such routine measurement of the sky produced an enlightened understanding that the real heaven is observed by the senses.

In a context of general illiteracy, the general public was incapable of understanding such natural observation of reality, but was obsessed with traditional myths and magic. In this context, in order to convey mystery teachings to a broader audience, the esoteric natural teachings had to be concealed within fabulous supernatural exoteric stories – such as the miracles of Jesus.

There is reason to support this contention that the magical content of miracles is more exoteric than esoteric. For example, the breast plate of the high priest in the temple at Jerusalem had twelve precious stones which symbolised the twelve signs of the zodiac, according to Josephus and Philo. There is nothing necessarily magical about the zodiac, which simply indicates the twelve months of the year. But this zodiac imagery conflicted with the public teaching from Deuteronomy not to worship the sun and moon and stars, and so there may well have been reason to keep this symbolism a secret within Judaism.

As the monotheist Christian iconoclasts grew in power, it proved a fairly easy matter for them to suppress esoteric natural knowledge within the church and obliterate most of its traces. But to reiterate, this does not mean the esoteric was magical. In fact, the reverse is more plausible, that the esoteric view contained an enlightened rational natural understanding of phenomena such as in astronomy, while the exoteric teachings of the church had to dumb down this secret wisdom into magical signs and wonders in order to cultivate their supernatural public dogma. This reading helps to explain why Jesus decries discussion of signs from heaven just after he has supposedly miraculously fed the four thousand in Mark 8.

There is a water into wine magic amphora invented by Heron of ancient Alexandria described at http://www.maicar.com/GML/Wine.html. Priests have long found that impressing the gullible is a path to popularity.

But the question now is whether stage magic provided the deepest level of meaning for the story. In this case, turning water into wine, another explanation might be that the authors of the Cana Wedding story wanted to tell a parable about the sanctity of ordinary life, that everyday commodities such as water actually have a divine symbolic value. The point is that the meaning of the miracle is as parable, rather than as some sort of Bullwinkle rabbit and hat trick.

The gospel story starts from big mysterious ideas, such as the eternal Christ as word made flesh. The real content and intention of the miracle stories is as illustrations of the theology. So the water seems to be water but in the presence of Christ is actually wine, just as flesh seems to only be flesh but is actually the bearer of spirit, as a parable for the soul as the image of God.

Conjuring is just a way to make the illustration sink in for ignorant listeners. What happened was that as Christianity became a degraded mass movement its allegorical content was bastardised and lost.

Christianity was deformed by base politics. Enlightened wisdom cries in the marketplace and is ignored, while a fantastic showman gets attention despite being a whited sepulchre. So Jesus despairs of human stupidity in explaining that the loaves and fishes are not signs from heaven. The author wants readers to look through the superficial account of signs and wonders to see the transformative reality.

What people subsequently came to believe does not really help us in the effort to reconstruct the motives and intentions and identities of the authors of the Gospels. We should not accept Christian dogma on face value that the Gospel authors were Jesus Literalists, or that they thought miracles actually occurred. The Gospels themselves contain strong hints that this conventional reading is just wrong.

The massive upheaval between the alleged time of Christ and the production of the Gospels included the Roman invasion and destruction of Jerusalem. The traumatic context meant it suited believers in the second century to promulgate a miraculous popular faith. The question here is how these false beliefs plausibly arose in terms of historical evolution.

The miraculous ideas in the Gospels originated among mystery cults (and I am not using cult in a pejorative sense). They told stories to convey theological messages. The stories that became popular are the ones that were catchy, as we see with the mass emotional appeal of popular music today. The politicians of the church then used the criterion of popularity to swing the guns of mass opinion against the isolated Gnostics and purge them and their ideas. So mystical ideas such as cross and resurrection became bastardised and corrupted into popular simple historical miracle stories.

It is all rather tragically similar to the historical evolution of the Russian Revolution. Stalin constructed the myth of Lenin and used it to purge the old Bolsheviks, so that the Communist Party of the 1940s bore little resemblance to the Bolshevik movement of 1917. But the 'airbrushing' conducted by early Christians of their Gnostic origins was far more successful than Stalin's efforts to rewrite history, since the big lies of Christianity are still widely believed today.

The best heuristic for this analysis is Orwell's dictum in 1984 - "who controls the present controls the past." The orthodox efforts to find and destroy all Gnostic material were highly successful, such that our efforts today to understand how the Gospels really came into existence require a forensic study of the remaining cryptic clues in the extant texts. The original voices are mainly heard through the distorting lens of canonical censorship. It seems the authors were smarter than their critics, and left enough clues for their real meaning to be rediscovered.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:45 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 804
Continuing in search of the miraculous...

:wink:

The Historical Jesus story has no rational place for the miraculous, so must find some other explanation for the miracle stories which are presented as central to the Gospels. Apart from the resurrection the miracles of Christ are entirely absent from Paul’s epistles, justifying an immediate hermeneutic of suspicion regarding their provenance. If Jesus actually lived, the miracle stories would be an overlay on actual memory.

It is more plausible against the evidence to think of the relation between story and miracles the other way round: the miracles cme first. The miraculous Jesus Christ as eternal logos and divine pre-existent spirit was a mystery idea with wide but secret currency at the turn of the common era, reflecting the idea of divine king of the world as anointed saviour, in Greek Christ Jesus. The process of word becoming flesh described by John most plausibly meant the myth was historized, not that the history was mythologised.

The emergence of the Christ story occurred in the context of a shared history post destruction of the temple in 70 AD. This history was primarily one of trauma, in which the Romans had crucified many. The healing process required a psychological displacement of the extreme cruelty experienced by the Jews in the Roman War, in which Josephus says the Romans crucified Jews until they ran out of wood. The mystical Christ therefore served as one for all (1 Peter 3:18, 2 Corinthians 5:14, , a symbolic sacrificial king who was able to represent the sins of the world in place of the actual horrific memory of mass slaughter.

The Jesus story brought together common experience into an archetype, becoming more real as recovered memory in religious imagination as the actual memories faded. The absence of any evidence that such a man as Jesus actually lived, either in Josephus or Philo or any other extra-Biblical sources, suggests the story of Christ originated as an imaginative fable, not as embroidery of any actual personal memory.

This mythic basis of the Christ story is further supported by the claimed existence of Christian groups around the Roman Empire in the first century, as attested by Paul. Accepting the conventional timing of Paul’s Epistles for argument’s sake, it is bizarre that a carpenter from Nazareth would have become the actual object of such widespread cultic ritual and debate about his identity.

The primary object of worship was the eternal Christ, not the man of Nazareth (a place which is not mentioned by Paul partly because the town did not then exist). One of the functions of the miracle stories was to explain the rapid implausible spread of the ‘man from Galilee’ dogma, with the suggestion that the explosive geographical growth arose from word of mouth about the feeding of the multitude, walking on water and rising from the dead. Of course this is all impossible, unless you apply the Deus ex machina that to God all things are possible by miracle.

My view is that the miracles came first, as heroic myth, and were steadily popularised into the Nazareth story, which itself is just a fig leaf for the real identity of Christ as representing the Gnostic Nazarene sect, wich in turn could not be mentioned because it was proscribed by Rome for its Gnostic rebel views.

The death and resurrection miracle is a very ancient fertility cult, with the annual turn of the seasons from winter to spring celebrated with the ritual death and return of the king. This annual myth feeds into a much bigger story of time, with the Christ alpha omega myth matching directly to the ancient observation of precession of the equinoxes, a story encoded in the loaves and fishes miracle.

Basically, convention has the causality backwards with its logic of man becoming god as Jesus was deified as Christ. The more logical explanation is that god became man as the ideal Christ was historized as Jesus. Jesus Christ started off as a myth, who was then enfleshed in story. Christ did not exist so the early church had to invent him.

The Gospels were a weapon of war against Rome, developed at a time when physical warfare was not possible in the context of catastrophic and humiliating military defeat. Spiritual warfare required the subtle removal of Rome’s moral legitimacy, through the popular replacement of Caesar by Christ as Lord and Saviour, within an expedient tactical assertion of imperial loyalty. Miracle stories formed an important part of this strategic Christian struggle to win the hearts and minds of the Empire.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group