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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:33 am 
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Let's focus in again on Mark 8:19 and 8:21, where Jesus is talking to his disciples after his conversation with the Pharisees:

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(KJV) Mark 8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve... 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?


The twelve 'baskets full of fragments' in Mark 8:19 are produced by breaking five loaves to feed five thousand men and their families. In cosmic terms, this image corresponds to the twelve signs of the zodiac formed by the motion of the five visible planets among the 5000 visible stars. The five loaves=planets are broken among the 5000 men=stars to produce twelve baskets of fragments=signs of the zodiac. Such a reading would have been obvious to the Jewish High Priests who wore the symbols of the twelve signs of the zodiac on their breastplate.

Jesus asks his disciples "How is it that ye do not understand?", indicating there is a cryptic meaning in the story that has escaped the understanding of participants. Reading the miracle as a parable of the relation between stars, signs and planets in the gyre of the Great Year, we can start to make sense of why Jesus despairs at the disciples' lack of understanding. No other reading, especially not a literal miraculous reading, explains why Jesus experiences such frustration at his inability to communicate the real message of his core miracle to his followers.

This reading of the miracle as a parable of the stars works whether Jesus was real or not. Therapeutic authors of the Gospels would have been equally well aware of the intense difficulty of communicating a cosmic vision to the ignorant masses. The Jewish context was highly ambivalent, combining zodiacal symbols such as the high priest's breastplate with strong rejection of pagan star worship as a capital crime, eg Deu 17:3. In this context, Christianity found it necessary to conceal stellar imagery in its texts, while retaining it for those capable of seeing and understanding.

Attunement to the cycle of the cosmos is presented as the source of miraculous abundance and creativity, although Jesus says the nature of the source is not comprehended by his disciples. As we move now towards the cusp of a New Age of Aquarius, the symbols of Aquarius and Leo, the waterbearer and the lion, can provide similar parables for emerging sources of cosmic abundance, just as the symbols of fish and bread provided for the Age of Pisces/Virgo.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Further discussion with Stahrwe

stahrwe wrote:
using the Jesus seminar to demonstrate that the veracity of the miracles of Jesus has been the subject of intense analysis is absolutely wrong. They just reject the miracles.
The Jesus Seminar stand within the modern tradition of Biblical analysis that has attempted to find possible explanations in the midst of traditional impossible faith explanations. Rejecting the miracles, or at least insisting that miracles have a natural explanation, is an important starting point for rational debate about the meaning of Biblical texts.
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your support of the astrological (repackaged as astrotheological) view of the Gospels violates the concept of parsimony.
No it doesn't. The rival hypotheses are:
1. Bible authors interpreted the structure of human history against the slow sweep of the stars, defining the Ages in terms of the movement of the annual year against the signs of the zodiac.
2. Bible authors faithfully recorded actual events of a supernatural intervention in history.

Hypothesis 2, Christian orthodoxy, is shown to be highly dubious because the Gospels say their objective is to induce belief. When we see that Paul's Epistles were written well before the Gospels, it makes the psychological pathway clearer if we see the Gospels as historizing a spiritual message. Of course the historized version of Christ caught the popular imagination, but the complete absence of records of discussion of Christ before the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed by Rome in 70AD suggests the Gospels are most likely fiction. The loaves and fishes miracle sits at the centre of the fictional accounts, explaining how Christ incarnated the turning point of the stars.

Hypothesis 1, astrotheology, has a deep pedigree in ancient wisdom from India, Persia, Egypt and Greece. Plato said in the Timaeus that the zodiac and the galaxy define the relation between time and eternity. Because of the hostility expressed by dogmatists, and the great success in spreading the story of the historical literal Christ, the stellar reading of the Bible has been suppressed to the point that people find it impossible to imagine. Considered without prejudice, astrotheology is a far more parsimonious reading, consistent with all known facts, than literal orthodoxy, defining a change of paradigm in reading of the Bible.
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Jesus, the Alpha is the beginning of time, and Jesus the Omega represents the end of time.

Yes, this is the traditional reading, but when you actually look at texts such as the Alpha and Omega references in Revelation, the timing is ambiguous. Even with the traditional reading, we can see Jesus as the alpha and omega of the Age of Pisces, predicted to return when the zodiac precesses from Pisces into the next sign Aquarius. My view is that this reading points to a bigger story, the presence of the Great Year as the regulator of the structure of planetary history. The spin wobble has been stable for four billion years, with one cycle per 25765 years. If each of these slow cycles has a beginning and end, postulated at the time of Christ, we see an elegant match between Christian theory of the alpha and omega and the correspondence between the Great Year and the annual cycle. Just as the annual cycle begins and ends at the spring equinox, as winter gives way to spring, the Great Year begins and ends at the time of Christ, as the position of the sun in Aries, the first sign, gives way to a new age beginning with the sun in Pisces, the last sign. The first and last, the alpha and omega, the unity of the beginning and end, are built into the Great Year at its empirical foundation.
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When the universe will be destroyed (heaven and earth shall pass away)

The Biblical word Aeon is translated as Age, as in 'end of the Age'. Aeon is often mistranslated as world. Stahrwe here takes this mistranslation and extends and distorts it by translating Aeon as 'universe', and presenting the farcical suggestion that the second coming of Jesus Christ will involve the destruction of the universe. The only universe that will be destroyed in the eschaton is the universe of false beliefs that traditional faiths have built on their myths, when humanity evolves into a new age based on true knowledge rather than false belief. The real heaven is eternal as the stars. The heaven and earth that will pass away are the obsolete constructions that dominant religions now hold as absolute truth.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Robert said,

Quote:
Yes, this is the traditional reading, but when you actually look at texts such as the Alpha and Omega references in Revelation, the timing is ambiguous. Even with the traditional reading, we can see Jesus as the alpha and omega of the Age of Pisces, predicted to return when the zodiac precesses from Pisces into the next sign Aquarius. My view is that this reading points to a bigger story, the presence of the Great Year as the regulator of the structure of planetary history. The spin wobble has been stable for four billion years, with one cycle per 25765 years. If each of these slow cycles has a beginning and end, postulated at the time of Christ, we see an elegant match between Christian theory of the alpha and omega and the correspondence between the Great Year and the annual cycle. Just as the annual cycle begins and ends at the spring equinox, as winter gives way to spring, the Great Year begins and ends at the time of Christ, as the position of the sun in Aries, the first sign, gives way to a new age beginning with the sun in Pisces, the last sign. The first and last, the alpha and omega, the unity of the beginning and end, are built into the Great Year at its empirical foundation.




When you put it as simply as this, it's hard to believe Stahrwe even can answer with a straight face. He seems so short of words that he has to resort to trying to use other people that haven't really read Acharya's work to counter. Keep up the good work. Eventaully he'll just have to, GASP!, buy her books and see for himself instead of trying to take internet apologists words for the truth about what she writes.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:53 pm 
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Robert wrote:
The heaven and earth that will pass away are the obsolete constructions that dominant religions now hold as absolute truth.

This is plainly clear. It's the passing away of the confounding of these myths. The priest did wear a 12 jewel breast plate and did understand the cosmic theme and yet did forbid this knowledge to the common people. The loaves and fishes allegory shows something in the way of trying to give to the common people the knowledge that had been horded away by the Jewish orthodoxy and forbidden to the common man. And the common man struggled to understand the knowledge. It's all there in the allegory. And what we have now in the world is the very same. The Christian orthodoxy are keeping the message from the common people. In both cases it is the orthodoxy which is the bad guy. One actually following the lead of what the character of Jesus is saying would be one spreading this cosmic wisdom around in the general community just as the allegory describes. And Robert, you have been doing just that. And you have received the same type of flaccid response that the character of Jesus received in the allegory. The common people didn't understand then and they still don't understand know. Stahrwe represents the common simple minded people who even when faced with the facts, still don't get it. And that's consistent with the theme of the allegory. No one really gets it - less a few here and there - until the big revelation finally sets in abruptly at the end of the age.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:09 am 
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stahrwe wrote:
you can't have a modern tradition.
Yes you can. Science is at the centre of the modern tradition of rational observation and interpretation of evidence. Science stands in opposition to older traditions of supernatural authority that are based on fantastic mythological imagination such as Christianity.
Quote:
the interpretation of the Jesus seminar is not inline with 'modern' interpretation. They engage in a biased assault on the Bible.
There are many different ways to read the Bible. I mentioned the Jesus Seminar not to agree with their reading, but to illustrate an influential approach from Biblical scholars that applies critical methods to assess the merits of the texts. In this discussion of the biggest miracles of Jesus, it is interesting to see that the Jesus Seminar dismiss apocalyptic interpretation of the mind of Christ in favour of a reading of Christ as primarily a social reformer. This social gospel hypothesis is the bias within the scientific method of the Jesus Seminar that seems to me most problematic, because without eschatology Jesus is nothing.

Taking the Bible at face value along the lines of reformed theology, etc, is equally problematic because it refuses to address the historical problems in assessing the testimony of faith. There is much more fiction and allegory in the Bible than is accepted as such by contemporary Christianity.
Quote:
you are conflating 'rational explanation' with 'rational debate'. Like it or not, one may rationally debate things which do not have a rational explanation.
The ideas I have presented here about the cosmic framework of the loaves and fishes miracles as a symbol of the Great Year seek to provide a rational explanation for the texts. I am happy to debate whether or not this explanation is rational. The alternative, a supernatural God who breaks the laws of physics, is contrary to all established knowledge.
Quote:

Now, please provide evidence, not vague interpretations, speculation, and symbolic interpreation for #1 above.
The questions of evidence that I am interested in are about matching the history of production of the Gospels to their religious context, including how the Gospels draw on earlier myth, their relation to the Epistles of Paul, and to what extent a Great Year interpretation provides a more persuasive and compelling reading of the available evidence than does traditional theology.
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BTW, I remembered another thing you were wrong about. A rather significant error when you claimed that the jewels on the Ephod of the High Priest had the names of the signs of the zodiac when they actually had the names of the tribes of Israel.
Both Philo and Josephus say that the twelve jewels of the Ephod of the High Priest of Israel are the twelve signs of the zodiac. An old tradition identifies these twelve jewels with the foundation stones of the holy city at Revelation 21:19-20 as the zodiac signs in reverse from Pisces to Aries. You can find this zodiac reading cited in main commentaries on the Bible.
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Robert Tulip wrote:
Hypothesis 2, Christian orthodoxy, is shown to be highly dubious because the Gospels say their objective is to induce belief.

1) Please cite the verse you base this statement on.
John says his motive is to induce belief. John starts off by saying at 1:7 that he ‘came as a witness, that he might testify about the light, that all might believe through him’, and goes on to use the word ‘believe’ or ‘belief’ 102 times, more than once every four paragraphs, such as the statement at 20:31 ‘these are written, that you may believe.’ Belief without evidence is propaganda.
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2) Why is a book considered dubious because it has an objective to foster belief. Science books, history books, mathematics books have similar purposes.
Mainstream standards of scholarship distinguish between propaganda and evidence. When claims (eg “Intelligent Design”) are motivated by pushing a propaganda barrow that conflicts with evidence, the reputation of its proponents suffers severely. Any scholar who argues for claims that are contrary to evidence will find their ideas attacked in peer review. The interesting issue in Biblical studies is that peer review is corrupted by dogma, with main authorities holding to claims of faith for which evidence is weak or nonexistent. I would be more than happy for any of the ideas I have presented here to be subjected to formal review.
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robert tulip wrote:
When we see that Paul's Epistles were written well before the Gospels, it makes the psychological pathway clearer if we see the Gospels as historizing a spiritual message. Of course the historized version of Christ caught the popular imagination, but the complete absence of records of discussion of Christ before the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed by Rome in 70AD suggests the Gospels are most likely fiction.
If the Gospels postdate the destruction of the Temple (70 AD) [by the way, thank you for using the correct designation for dates] why is there no mention of its destruction anywhere in them.
The Gospels are written ‘that you may believe’. Including mention of subsequent historic events would have been an obvious anachronism in books that purported to be history. In any case, Jesus mentions the destruction of the temple at John 2:19.
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Quote:
The loaves and fishes miracle sits at the centre of the fictional accounts, explaining how Christ incarnated the turning point of the stars.


What is your evidence for this?
I have already discussed this at some length in this thread. The loaves and fishes miracle occurs six times in the Gospels, and there are the related stories of the 153 fish and the descriptions of the apostles as fishers of men. The numerous references to bread include Bethlehem (the house of bread). A nice line on bread is at John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life.”” The ‘bread of God which comes down out of heaven” can readily be interpreted as an astrological reference to the sign of Virgo as symbolized by bread.

I have made astronomical diagrams showing the precession of the equinox every one thousand years over one Great Year from 8000 BC to 18000 AD. Looking at the sky chart for the time of Christ 0 BC-AD, you can see that the spring point of the sun has reached the first fish of Pisces. Here are the maps showing the position of the northern spring equinox in 4000 BC (Taurus), 0 BC/AD (Christ) and 2000 AD (Pisces).
4000BC
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0 BC/AD
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2000 AD
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Stars were the television of the ancient world, providing a context for myths and legends. The main actual change in the sky over the millennia is this Great Year cycle of the seasons against the signs. For the ancient world, where astrology was widespread, the slow movement of the equinox points out of the signs of the Ram and the Scales and into the signs of the Fishes and the Virgin was a well known central feature of astronomy.

However, monotheism saw star worship as evil, and did everything it could to suppress it, including through the closure of pagan temples and burning of their books. The ancients apparently considered the mysteries of the stars as a secret, and could not imagine that Christianity could possible suppress this material so effectively. We now only possess fragments of a coherent ancient stellar picture. A book on the loss of the stellar mythology of the Great Year, Hamlet’s Mill, describes the fragmentary knowledge of the Great Year in a range of sources.
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the connections you claim are just not there. You can count on one hand the times the zodiac or constellations are named in the Old and New Testament. Why make it so obscure if your purpose is to relate religion to some great celestial time system?
Editors of the Bible were hostile to star worship, with Deuteronomy calling it a capital crime. It is highly possible that original versions of texts had explicit cosmic references that were deleted. So, the apparent strategy in the Gospels is to conceal the cosmic message beneath a historic veneer.
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How do you know that the spin/wobble has been stable for 4 billion years? Just curious. That is a long time. Are there records you are using for this?
The records are the observed pace of change of the orbits of the earth and the moon. The earth-moon system has been stable since the late heavy bombardment 3.9 billion years ago, which probably marked the stabilisation of the solar system when Neptune moved out from its original position inside the orbit of Uranus. Earth’s axis wobble is caused by the gravitational tug of the sun and moon on the ‘spare tire’ around the earth’s equator. The speed of wobble is a function of the distance to the sun and moon, which has been very stable. The moon drifts further away from the earth at the rate of less than two inches per year, making earth’s day one minute longer every four million years.
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You provide no scripture reference but just accuse me of mistranslating aeon. Where did that come from? The phrase 'heaven and earth shall pass away' is Matthew 24:35 but has nothing to say about aeon. You refer to the Biblical word 'aeon'; I did a search in Netbible for the word aeon and aeons and had no hits.
Aeon is the Greek word translated Age. Your assertion that the universe will be destroyed aligns to predictions of ‘the end of the world’ as a mistranslation of Aeon, which actually refers to the Ages of the Zodiac.
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You say, 'the real heaven is eternal as the stars'. The word used for heaven in Matthew is ouranos which means cosmos, not where God is, and the cosmos is not eternal.

Eternal is a relative term, with various meanings including lasting for ever (eg the laws of physics), outside time (statements of logic) and highest value (ethical ideals). By human timeframes, the 14 billion years of the existence of the universe makes the cosmos close to eternal. We know that stars are not eternal but are born and die along the main sequence. So ‘eternal as the stars’ means very durable but not permanent.

The great age of the cosmos provides what Plato called a moving image of eternity. We can have no knowledge of anything beyond the cosmos. Speculation about a single eternal God needs to identify some way that this eternal being can influence the earth. The reflection of the Great Year in human culture provides an economical and productive answer to this problem of the relation between time and eternity.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:16 am 
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Here is a Baha'i interpretation of the twelve jewels: The Divine Civilization of New Jerusalem

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The Structure of the New Jerusalem Gates and Foundations
The 12 gates and the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem wall ... ringing the city in reverse zodiac order counter-clockwise from the southeast cornerstone (vv. 21.14–20).
The breastplate-gemstones signify zodiac signs, for what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac…the months or the constellations, which the Greeks call the circle of the zodiac?[28]
Also the New Jerusalem gemstones signify zodiac signs: the diamond Pisces, the sapphire Aquarius, the chalcedony Capricorn, the emerald Sagittarius, the sardonyx Scorpio, the ruby Libra, the chrysolite Virgo, the beryl Leo, the topaz Cancer, the chrysoprase Gemini, the jacinth Taurus, and the amethyst Aries.[29]
Amazingly, the 12 foundation-gemstones of New Jerusalem follow an exact reverse zodiacal sequence.[30]Why, surely not by accident? Perhaps John trying to stand esoteric knowledge conflicting with faith on its head? No, quite the opposite. The 12 zodiac signs signify not only the passage of months over the year but of Zodiac Ages (Months) over a grand Great Platonic Year. Twelve Zodiac Ages or Months, each lasting 2,147 years, form a Platonic Year of 25,765 years. During over a Platonic Year the earth wobbles once in space as a giant slow-motion spinning-top. The wobble creates two types of year: the well-known seasonal year set by the sun, and the less-known cosmic year set by the stars. Seasonal and cosmic years are almost—but not quite—the same length. Each cosmic year slips by just 20½ minutes quicker than each seasonal year, and the discrepency adds up to full calendar month every 2,147–year Zodiac Age.
As a result, the welcome that the regular calendar gives to each star-set Zodiac Age comes earlier and earlier, the past few as follows:
The Age of Gemini as the Era of twin-gods like Isis and Osiris
The Age of Taurus as the Era of the god Baal and bull-sacrifice
The Age of Aries as the Era of Judaism and ram-sacrifice
The Age of Pisces as the Era of Christianity and fishing-for-men
This new Age of Aquarius as the Era of the Baha’i Faith and its water of knowledge.
This running backwards of Zodiac Ages is called precession (the precession of the equinoxes),[31] which is simply what the reverse zodiac sequence of the New Jerusalem gemstones traces.

[28] Philo, Life of Moses 2.24.124–26, Special Laws 1.16.87 & Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 3.7.7
[29] Kircher, Oedipus Aegyptiacus 2.2.177–78, courtesy of St. John’s College Library, Cambridge, http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/library
[30]Charles 207–08, also quoting Encyclopaedia Biblica 1903 Edition, Gemstones 2E–K.4799–4812
[31] Duncan, The Calendar 324


And from the Catholic website Fish Eaters: Precious Stones of Sacred Scripture
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Exodus 28:15-21
And thou shalt make the rational of judgment with embroidered work of divers colours, according to the workmanship of the ephod, of gold, violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen. It shall be four square and doubled: it shall be the measure of a span both in length and in breadth. And thou shalt set in it four rows of stones. In the first row shall be a sardius stone, and a topaz, and an emerald: In the second a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a jasper: In the third a ligurius, an agate, and an amethyst: In the fourth a chrysolite, an onyx, and a beryl. They shall be set in gold by their rows. And they shall have the names of the children of Israel: with twelve names shall they be engraved, each stone with the name of one according to the twelve tribes.

Jewish Encyclopedia: The vestments of the high priest were interpreted in three ways.
The explanation of Philo is as follows ("Vita Mosis," iii. 209): His upper garment was the symbol of the ether, while the blossoms represented the earth, the pomegranates typified running water, and the bells denoted the music of the water. The ephod corresponded to heaven, and the stones on both shoulders to the two hemispheres, one above and the other below the earth. The six names on each of the stones were the six signs of the zodiac, which were denoted also by the twelve names on the breastplate. The miter was the sign of the crown which exalted the high priest above all earthly kings.
Josephus' explanation is this ("Ant." iii. 7, § 7): The coat was the symbol of the earth, the upper garment emblemized heaven, while the bells and pomegranates represented thunder and lightning. The ephod typified the four elements, and the interwoven gold denoted the glory of God. The breastplate was in the center of the ephod, as the earth formed the center of the universe; the girdle symbolized the ocean, the stones on the shoulders the sun and moon, and the jewels in the breastplate the twelve signs of the zodiac, while the miter was a token of heaven.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica: According to some, the literal reason for these vestments was that they denoted the disposition of the terrestrial globe; as though the high-priest confessed himself to be the minister of the Creator of the world, wherefore it is written (Wis. 18:24): "In the robe" of Aaron "was the whole world" described. For the linen breeches signified the earth out of which the flax grows. The surrounding belt signified the ocean which surrounds the earth. The violet tunic denoted the air by its color: its little bells betoken the thunder; the pomegranates, the lightning. The ephod, by its many colors, signified the starry heaven; the two onyx stones denoted the two hemispheres, or the sun and moon. The twelve precious stones on the breast are the twelve signs of the zodiac: and they are said to have been placed on the rational because in heaven, are the types [rationes] of earthly things, according to Job 38:33: "Dost thou know the order of heaven, and canst thou set down the reason [rationem] thereof on the earth?" The turban or tiara signified the empyrean: the golden plate was a token of God, the governor of the universe.

In St. John the Divine's vision of the Heavenly Jerusalem, the City stood on a foundation of 12 stones, each correlating with one of the stones of the breast plate. The stones, though, are in a different order -- with the last stone of the breastplate (the stone associated with the tribe of Benjamin) listed first.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:52 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
No, what it showed is a somewhat defective memory. I went back and checke the discussion in Revelation and you are right, You didn't say that Aquila was part of the Zodiac, what you did was try to bend the constellations so that somehow Aquila was a surrogate for Scorpio so you could maintain your imaginary celestial cross that had something to do with two rivers and the tree of life. It didn't make any sense then and it doesn't now. And we should care what Baha'i says because ...? This is another stretch. Just go by what the Bible says. Why is that so hard? Instead you are invoking Baha'i, Philo, Josephus, Robert Tulip, ... let it be. They are the names of the tribes of Israel, that's it. I don't see any point in including the above [Exodus description of the twelve jewels]. The above [references from Josephus, Philo and Aquinas] represent speculation and are not based on the Bible. In the case of Thomas Aquinas he doesn't even represent that it is a majority opinion. As for the Jewish Encyclopedia, I checked out what it said and have reproduce it below. I also included the citation/url so BT readers can validate what I am reporting. I don't find you language you published in the article I read. Perhaps I missed it. Once again we see a desire to cite a specific, narrow portion of one book of the Bible. Why not read and discuss the whole book so the errors don't persist?
Stahrwe, you may not care about finding a reading of the Bible that makes sense, but I do. How ironic that fundamentalists clutch at straws to pretend that fraudulent references inserted in the books of Josephus provide proof of the existence of Jesus, but now that I answer your question by documenting the ancient linkage between the Biblical twelve jewels and the zodiac in the writings of Josephus, you suddenly question his authority. I don't think Eusebius was likely to have inserted the astrology into Josephus like he inserted the pious fraud about Jesus. The stars are there from the start, but these references are distasteful to your dogma, just as they were distasteful to ancient dogmatic censors of the Bible.

Your comment about the Baha'i faith is a typical rude and baseless ad hominem insult, implying that the content of their ideas is defective only because of who they are. As usual, you play the man rather than the ball in order to divert attention from substantive comment, namely the corroboration of the scientific explanation of the twelve jewels that I have provided. You do not have to endorse or even consider the Baha'i faith to assess the content of the quote that you attack solely because of its source.

My description of the river of life as the Milky Way galaxy and the tree of life as the zodiac is an economical and elegant reading of the Biblical text. As Jesus said to his disciples who could not comprehend the cosmic code in the loaves and fishes, "How is it that you do not understand?"


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Good response. He doesn't seem to have the courage to enter this forum as "Stahrwe", so it's good to go ahead and leave an example of the BT debate here for browsers with an interest in seeing what comes of arguing with literalist fundies about the presence of astrotheological allegory. On one hand we have the blind believer position, and on the other an informed comparative religious studies position. Obviously the comparative religious study position will always be dominant in terms of truth because the bias is far too great on the part of the fundie. Denial is a necessary course of action in his case. When we argue with this guy it's actually a lot like fighting the Black Knight on Monty Python.



The entire YEC theory put to rest is nothing more than an unfolding like the above: "...just a flesh wound" :lol:

Stahrwe's sitting on the ground like a stump with his arms and legs gone acting as if nothing happened and he's perfectly fit to keep fighting and still poses a threat. It looks like he's up to more of the same with the loaves and fishes debate. He was leveled the minute he refered to the 12 tribes of Israel as the 'real meaning' of the breastplate. Yes Stahrwe, so what are the 12 tribes based on then?

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2639&start=0

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:55 am 
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I am not so much concerned about the debate with fundamentalism as with the problem of how to articulate a cosmic faith through a scientific reading of the Bible. The conversation with Stahrwe is useful because he says what many think, and because his views are treated by broad segments of the church as far more respectable than mine. This whole area of discussion is treated like it was invisible, with a complete absence of engagement by anyone who cares for their reputation in either scientific or religious circles.

My agenda here is to advocate a plausible interpretation of the psychological origins and evolution of Christian faith. My target audience is not fundamentalists, who are irredeemably lost, but rational readers who assume that you can't read the Bible except through a magical supernatural lens. The Great Year provides a physical framework for a mythological but non-supernatural reading of the Bible that should be persuasive for those who otherwise find religion totally irrational.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:30 am 
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Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
HAHAHAHA Tat, that is classic!!


Robert, keep putting the information out there. We got your back. You could tell stahrwe that 2+2=4 at this point and he'd disagree with you. After numerous posts over months of debate he FINALLY has to confront the meat of the matter and we get to put forth OUR position of the influences we see of the great year, sun, moon, and other cultures mythology had on the bible writers. He owes you an audience for however long it takes for you to fully explain this position to him considering the patience you've given him with the topics he wants to talk about. No time to let up on him now, you got him actually talking astrotheology. There are reasonable and rational people watching.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:02 am 
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The page views on my YEC thread went sky high. Stahrwe claims to have people watching his posts on his end, which is interesting altogether. I posted links to the YEC debate here too, so a good portion of views could have come from this end as well. But the point was made and the message got out there. So you probably have people seeing these discussions with Stahrwe and it gets the astrotheological reading out to more people. If he's linking to it and you're linking to it then it's getting around.

And apparently Locutus here has been following you and I and our own little debating and discussing precession for the last few years now.

Quote:
HAHAHAHA Tat, that is classic!!


Robert, keep putting the information out there. We got your back. You could tell stahrwe that 2+2=4 at this point and he'd disagree with you. After numerous posts over months of debate he FINALLY has to confront the meat of the matter and we get to put forth OUR position of the influences we see of the great year, sun, moon, and other cultures mythology had on the bible writers. He owes you an audience for however long it takes for you to fully explain this position to him considering the patience you've given him with the topics he wants to talk about. No time to let up on him now, you got him actually talking astrotheology. There are reasonable and rational people watching.


So you've been following the back and forth Locutus. I see that you've come in on OUR side of the debate which assumably means the astrotheological reading side of the debate. And if I'm not mistaken you were originally very skeptical about the astrotheologial readings at first and sought to prove Robert and I wrong by investigating the issue. What changed your original skeptical opinion if you don't mind expanding on it? Here we have an example of some one who has actually found enough interest in the subject to investigate the debate pretty thoroughly and who wound up siding with the astrotheological based interpretation of scripture when all was said and done. And it seems that you see Stahrwe as sort of at that beginning stage similar to where you were at one point before going on to learn much more about the issue, if I'm not mistaking the posts you've made.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:23 am 
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Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
Tat my original skepticism was born out of the confusion I felt about the bible. Although I had grown up with religion, many sections of the bible just didn't agree with me. Looking for answers from other religous people on subjects I had questions about in the bible only provided answers that were unsatisfactory. I read many forums like Dawkins, Sam Harris, Internet infidels and many others. The exposure I got to skepticism was a rude awakening but a good one as it turns out. I had spent countless hours reading and trying to disprove what I was being challenged with. Being in flux between having religous doubts but not believing fully what skeptics were saying is a very disconcerting feeling. This caused me to become such a voracious reader I remember nights my eyes hurt from the strain trying to cover so much material in philosophy, religion, skepticism, history, etc.. After a period of time I had to finally admit to myself that their answers were probably closer to the truth than my religous ones so I stayed on those boards and read more books to help with any lingering doubts about my new found enlightenment.

Then one day I came across someone on one of the skeptic forum boards that had a handle named Ptah. I had thought that he had misspelled his name and looked it up. That led to my looking at egyptian gods which eventually landed me on the truthbeknown website. Wait a minute, I thought, I had never heard this stuff before from any of the other skeptic websites. This was completely new stuff to me even though I thought I had seen all the atheist and skeptic arguments. What is this funny rumor about jesus and the sun and the egyptian religion of old? I briefly browsed Acharya's forum and the more I read the more I realized this area of skepticism was worth my full attention. I didn't like what I was reading. Even the years of my previous skepticism didn't fully prepare me for the shock of truth I was feeling while reading what Acharya had to say about the influence of mythology in religion. So I plunged head first into trying to disprove what she had written because you can't be exposed to the thought of all that and sleep well at night. Luckily for me zeigeist the movie came out a month later. What timing! All the people skeptical to her ideas presented in that movie were all the sudden everywhere on the net with campaigns against her. And I read A LOT of negative stuff about the first part of zeitgeist. This caused me to look up a tremendous amount of information. The more I got exposed to the information the more I saw the attacks against her having glaring mistakes which caused me to check Acharya's forums and read the commentary from the moderators. This caused me to read even more to see if what they said was right. I checked what I could and listened to both arguments and was in the end convinced by the mythicists. I didn't come to that decision lightly or quickly for even hard core atheist were bashing her. I visited many atheist, christian, philosophy and mythology websites and read more than my eyes could take. Many books and forum posts passed before my eyes but I know that what I place more confidence in now as the truth has gone through a thorough and nasty vetting process over a long period of time. I must have read nearly every single negative thing you could put on the internet against Acharya but after reading the information that refutes these claims, in the end the mythicist position proved to me the more reasonable answer. I have escaped the religious borg.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:42 am 
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Bast
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He he... I can relate to you Locutus.

I have never been religious even though I grew up with stories from the bible. Not as something supernatural, but more like children stories of universal themes like the parable of the good Samaritan.

I knew much about history, different religions and traditions. But as many others I watched the Zeitgeist movie, with part one as the eye opener. I still can not understand why I never grasped the obvious connections and relations. I then examined information and provider of this information.(Acharya). Accusations of being a satanist and devil worshiper confirmed that there had to be truth in what she contributed with on religious part of Zeitgeist. She inspired me to look deeper into own ancient Norse culture from same perspective. Fortunately this time consuming "adventure" can be combined with my studies of history at the university.

This forum is a very good tool to help find sources and information, and in addition provide a open arena to explore and discover different approaches to relevant thoughts.

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Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

Hávamál


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:13 pm 
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That's a pretty interesting journey Locutus. I have to give you credit for being able to understand what Robert and I have been on about all this time.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:17 am 
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Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
When Robert came along I thought I already had a PH'd in astrotheology, then you two started in and I didn't like the feeling of not being up to speed in this area that was quickly revealing itself to be contentious and later, cutting edge. And that is saying a lot in a forum like this. All the skeptic website forums kept dishing up the same old arguments and I felt like I had a good handle on the various "Arguments from..." anyways and nothing was grabbing my attention like the new fresh perspectives I kept continually running into here. And although these ideas that are explored here have taken me on a roller coaster ride that has taken up my valuable time, I would gladly go through it all over again to have this awareness.


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