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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:53 am 
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I thought this video was interesting and would be fun to further explore the concepts of the solar hero as a torch bearer. Fair warning on the scratchy audio:

2012 ORION GILGAMESH HERAKLES THE SOLAR HERO MYSTERY SOLVED


More videos by TickingClock2013

Acharya mentions torch bearers in Christ in Egypt (CIE) page 359: Mithraic torch bearers

Who Was Jesus (WWJ) page 251: Light bearer

It appears that TickingClock2013 could use some help learning how to confirm and verify what it all means. It may be wise to contact Dr. Krupp to ask him for his thoughts.

Other torch bearers that come to mind are the Olympic torch bearers, Statue of Liberty, the Columbia torch lady Queen Semiramis/Cybele at the start of many movies and Prometheus carrying the lighted torch :

Quote:
"The Olympic flame is a symbol of the Olympic Games.[1] Commemorating the theft of fire from the Greek god Zeus by Prometheus, its origins lie in ancient Greece, where a fire was kept burning throughout the celebration of the ancient Olympics."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_flame

"Light of Truth, symbolized by the blazing Torch"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gr ... al_figures

Quote:
"Iachen was known in Minoan Crete as I-wa-ko, who became the Greek torch bearing son of Persephone - Iakchos, who was also associated with Sirius, as ‘the light bearing star of the nocturnal mysteries’ according to Kerenyi. The late Isis took on the role of many more ancient deities, including Neith, Hathor and the lion headed Sekhmet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sothis

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:50 pm 
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That is very interesting. 8)

I haven't been looking at the summer solstices to check Orion's position, just the winter solstices. So it goes without saying that knowing that Osiris was associated with the constellation of Orion we're then looking at Osiris bearing the sun @ select summer solstices throughout history. And what a perfect alignment just barely crossing over and clearing the ecliptic and galactic plane. I'm sure Tulip will want to get to work on this with his own software.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Thanks guys, I watched the video talk. What it indicates is that Orion's right arm is pointing to the spot where the ecliptic crosses the galactic plane. This point is now at the northernmost spot for the sun at the summer solstice, and 12,000 years ago due to precession it was at the southernmost point, the winter solstice. In 4000 BC this spot marked the spring equinox.

This does not make Orion a zodiac constellation, since the stars at this spot are the twins, Castor and Pollux, which are part of the constellation Gemini, but it does illustrate how the main figures in the sky are related to each other. This construction of Orion as pointing to a transition spot is similar to how the foot of Aries the Ram is constructed in the traditional constellation pictures as pointing to the exact spot where the equinox sun crossed into Pisces at the time of Christ, indicating a secret story of knowledge about how the history of the earth could be told by illustration from the heavens through the slow cycle of precession.

It is great that the author of this Orion talk is able to use software to reconstruct the ancient sky, and speculate about possible meanings. I don't think there are ancient texts that validate his speculation of Orion as torchbearer, but it is an interesting idea. Tat and I have previously discussed the movement of Orion's belt, with Al-Nitak now reaching the celestial equator due to precession.

This point in the sky has a specific importance against Christian astrotheology, marking the fall from grace. It is the spot where the equinox crossed the Milky Way in about 4000 BC. My own speculation here is that the twins of Gemini, Castor and Pollux are the torch bearers, as in the Mithraic Tauroctony, pointing the way up to heaven and the way down to hell. Their names are Cautes and Cautopates. This matches to the story of the cherubim holding the flaming sword in Genesis 3:24 who bar the way of Adam and Eve back to Paradise. Paradise is here defined in terms of the tree of life, which in Revelation 22 is explained as knowledge of the zodiac, the tree with twelve fruits growing on both sides of the river of life, which is the Milky Way. Acharya has used my depiction of this in the 2013 Astrotheology Calendar.

How I read this Bible myth is that Paradise is the Golden Age of the Satya Yuga, when the spring equinox was north of the Milky Way. The spring equinox crossed to the south of the galaxy when it passed through Gemini into Taurus in around 4000 BC, a time identified by Christianity with the fall from grace. The forgetting of earlier consciousness is reflected in the Genesis idea of Eden as the single lifetime of creation, whereas in fact human life had been stable and peaceful for thousands of years before this time.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:01 am 
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Fascinating, but given as I am not very thoroughly studied in astronomy, I have to wonder how the ancients would have projected that such would be the position of Orion during the day time when Orion would not be visible due to the sunlight.
Also, would the winter solstice and spring equinox have fallen on the equivalent of Julian 12/21 in 25,000 and 3/21 in 10,000? I'll need to check myself on Stellarium, but I do remember that the winter solstice at around the turn of the 2nd millenium BCE was on the equivalent of January 5th or 6th or thereabouts, in early January is the point, rather than late December.

This is still interesting though, I'm going to play around with this. If Ulanssey is correct that the tauroctony of Mithras is an homage to the change from Taurus to Aries, with the bull representing Taurus, then I wonder if the torch bearers also equate to Orion bearing the sun, and when that solar-orion alignment happened during the approximate date of the precession out of Taurus.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:15 pm 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
Fascinating, but given as I am not very thoroughly studied in astronomy, I have to wonder how the ancients would have projected that such would be the position of Orion during the day time when Orion would not be visible due to the sunlight.
It is actually fairly simple for people with long accurate records of celestial movements such as the Babylonians to calculate the position of the sun on any given day, which became the basis of the zodiac calendar. A total lunar eclipse is directly opposite the sun, and enables ready calculation of the position of the sun against the fixed stars. I discuss this in the thread on precession of the moon.
Quote:
Also, would the winter solstice and spring equinox have fallen on the equivalent of Julian 12/21 in 25,000 and 3/21 in 10,000? I'll need to check myself on Stellarium, but I do remember that the winter solstice at around the turn of the 2nd millenium BCE was on the equivalent of January 5th or 6th or thereabouts, in early January is the point, rather than late December.
There was no "December" in 2000 BC. Definition of dates depends just on the calendar method applied, which in pre-Christian times was more often lunisolar, using the observation of the moon to define the month and its weeks by the quarters of the moon, and readjusting every few years to add a month when there were 13 moons instead of twelve, in seven of every 19 years by the Metonic cycle, rather than the solar calendar we have today that ignores the lunar month.
Quote:
This is still interesting though, I'm going to play around with this. If Ulansey is correct that the tauroctony of Mithras is an homage to the change from Taurus to Aries, with the bull representing Taurus, then I wonder if the torch bearers also equate to Orion bearing the sun, and when that solar-orion alignment happened during the approximate date of the precession out of Taurus.


The alignment of Orion's right arm pointing to the equinox point was in about 4000 BC, as the equinox precessed into Taurus, not out of it. This point is the X of the Chi Rho where the zodiac permanently crosses the galaxy. This time in 4000 BC when this point also marked the celestial equator was the end of the Age of Gemini, and as in the Genesis 3:24 angel of paradise reference, it may be that the torchbearers are the twins of Gemini. So it could be that the Tauroctony, given it is full of celestial equator imagery rather than zodiac signs (except for signs that are on the equator), also uses the torchbearers to refer to Gemini as the gates of heaven, standing at the boundary between the upper and lower worlds separated by the Milky Way. I can illustrate this with diagrams.

In my [url]=http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3986review of Ulansey's book on The Mithraic Mysteries[/url], I comment as follows: "His argument is that discovery of precession in the second century BC by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus led to a new vision of the ultimate movement of the heavens as a basis of new religion, with Mithraism celebrating a precessional movement that occurred in about 2000 BC, the shift of the equinox from Taurus to Aries. The key problem I found in Ulansey's hypothesis is that he demonstrates fairly clearly that the Mithras figure in the Tauroctony represents the constellation Perseus, a major non-zodiacal star group just to the north of Taurus. But if Mithraism was about precession, it would be focussed on the shift of the equinox from Taurus into Aries, so the victory over the bull would be by the ram, not Perseus. The absence of ram symbolism in Mithraism, despite the well known association between Aries and the ram, indicates that precession is not central."


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Robert Tulip wrote:
It is actually fairly simple...


Ah, thank you.

Robert Tulip wrote:
There was no "December" in 2000 BC.


Yes, I know and have made clear that I know that many times here on FTN, hence why I was deliberately careful in my choice of language employed, i.e. "equivalent of Julian 12/21". There was no January then either, nevertheless, as I had stated, and as is the point, when one backtracks on Stellarium to the years used by the maker of this video (25,000 & 10,000), the winter solstice and spring equinox are not on the dates he used. If one were to type in 12/21 for 2000 BCE on Stellarium, that would not be the winter solstice, one would have to enter a date of somewhere between January 4th to 6th to get the winter solstice or lowest point of the sun's zenith for that year.

P.S. Stellarium automatically switches to Julian time when going back past the 16th century, for those out there who didn't already know.

Robert Tulip wrote:
The alignment of Orion's right arm pointing to the equinox point was in about 4000 BC, as the equinox precessed into Taurus, not out of it. This point is the X of the Chi Rho where the zodiac permanently crosses the galaxy. This time in 4000 BC when this point also marked the celestial equator was the end of the Age of Gemini, and as in the Genesis 3:24 angel of paradise reference, it may be that the torchbearers are the twins of Gemini. So it could be that the Tauroctony, given it is full of celestial equator imagery rather than zodiac signs (except for signs that are on the equator), also uses the torchbearers to refer to Gemini as the gates of heaven, standing at the boundary between the upper and lower worlds separated by the Milky Way. I can illustrate this with diagrams.


That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks. I like this better. I did toy around with Stellarium earlier today and as you state, the sun on Orion's club doesn't happen during any cardinal points of the year during any of the years proposed for the end of the age of Taurus, approximately from 2150 to 1875 BCE which is what I used. During that time frame it's closer to the Julian mid-May as per Stellarium's clock.

Robert Tulip wrote:
"His argument is that discovery of precession in the second century BC by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus led to a new vision of the ultimate movement of the heavens as a basis of new religion, with Mithraism celebrating a precessional movement that occurred in about 2000 BC, the shift of the equinox from Taurus to Aries. The key problem I found in Ulansey's hypothesis is that he demonstrates fairly clearly that the Mithras figure in the Tauroctony represents the constellation Perseus, a major non-zodiacal star group just to the north of Taurus. But if Mithraism was about precession, it would be focussed on the shift of the equinox from Taurus into Aries, so the victory over the bull would be by the ram, not Perseus. The absence of ram symbolism in Mithraism, despite the well known association between Aries and the ram, indicates that precession is not central."


Hmmm... not so sure I'm on board with that yet, I'd have to see more thorough objections. It's true I don't recall seeing much ram iconography related to Mithras, but what is possibly of note here is that our earliest Mithraic monuments, dated to the mid-1st century BCE, are syncretic and depict Mithras conflated with Attis in the act of tauroctony. Later reliefs also attest to the syncretism of these two deities. I am aware of at least one altar dedicated to Attis and Cybele that attest to the use of taurobolium along with criobolium as necessary to effect rebirth.

So while Mithraism does not explicitly contain much ram symbolism, the cult of Attis does indeed have much iconography of both the ram and the bull, often alongside each other, and both were sacrificed and used in blood baptism.

So given Attis' conflation with Mithraism at the turn of the Common Era, I have to wonder if that isn't worth considering when trying to determine the significance of precession in the development of Mithraism.

The Perseus bit is puzzling though. And adding to that is the fact that Mithraism clearly appears to have taken it's design of the tauroctony scene from Victory rather than Perseus.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:22 am 
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Thanks GA. Don't know why Stellarium uses Julian dates since they are rubbish. By using the exact 365.25 year length instead of the actual 365.2425 it erred by 3 days every 400 years, so any match to solstices and equinoxes outside of Roman times is useless. This means even any talk of an equivalent to Julian dates in 2000 BC is quite confusing, except that you have to work with it if your software is written that way. I use Sky Gazer which uses Gregorian dates throughout. NASA is even better with its eclipse dates, interpolating a year zero, so BC dates give for example 4 BC for the conventional 5 BC, so there are ten years in the decade of the dawn of our era, not the conventional nine.

Looking further at the Mithraic symbols, the constellations are not on the equator but to the south of the zodiac. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_m ... ying_scene gives the following suggestions for Components of the Tauroctony and Celestial Counterparts.
Bull Taurus
Dog Canis Minor, Canis Major
Snake Hydra, Serpens, Draco
Raven Corvus
Scorpion Scorpius
Wheat's ear (on bull's tail) Spica
Twins Cautes and Cautopates Gemini
Lion Leo
Crater Crater
Sol Sun
Luna Moon
Cave Universe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:56 am 
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That seems pretty far out there, but it would be interesting if it turned out that Mithraism outlined the shift from Gemini to Taurus, and in turn Taurus to Aries in one neat little package, the Tauroctony.

It would more or less mirror the Bibles outline of Gemini to Taurus to Aries in the Genesis through Exodus saga. Then Christianity begins to formulate, picks up the torch where the previous religions left off, consumes both Judaism and Mithraism, and then carries the sun into Pisces and forecasts the next movement into Aquarius.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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