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 Post subject: Jesus in the Talmud
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Isis

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Did anyone read this book?

Jesus in the Talmud (Hardcover)
by Peter Schafer (Author) "This book is about the perception of Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of Christianity, in the Talmud, the foundation document of rabbinic Judaism in Late..." (more)


http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Pete ... 0691129266


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:18 pm 
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I have not read that particular book, but I have studied to some degree the various purported references to Jesus in the Talmud.

In case anyone is wondering, these purported references - a number of which cannot be definitively claimed to refer to "the" Jesus of the gospels at all - do not represent credible, valid and scientific evidence of the existence of Jesus.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:31 pm 
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Acharya, thank you for the answer.
I didn't reply before due to a bad Internet connection ( I wrote about it in one thread...).

:)

Acharya wrote:
In case anyone is wondering, these purported references - a number of which cannot be definitively claimed to refer to "the" Jesus of the gospels at all - do not represent credible, valid and scientific evidence of the existence of Jesus.


Acharya, but why would they include it in the Talmud? It doesn't really make sense.
Was it done simply to trash the Christian God or people who wrote about Jesus in Talmud actually knew some person who later became known as Jesus Christ?

Does Talmud describe any events, by the way?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:43 pm 
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On a literal level it doesn't make sense that the Talmud would predict the coming of a Messiah etc, but when approached in astrotheological terms of predicting zodiacal ages etc, I think it would work out quite well.

Also, this might be what's behind the division in Judaism, with one camp featuring the lieralists who want to physically rebuild Solomon's Temple etc, while on the other hand there are groups such as Naturei Karta, who say that Israel shouldn't come into existence until the Messiah comes back.

Considering how Judaism features a lot of esoteric astronomical material, it would appear that the latter group has a better understanding of matters, as the coming of the Messiah would have more to do with another zodiacal age rather than a physical being turning up.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:25 pm 
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Mr Bridger wrote:
Considering how Judaism features a lot of esoteric astronomical material, it would appear that the latter group has a better understanding of matters, as the coming of the Messiah would have more to do with another zodiacal age rather than a physical being turning up.


It seems like the Jews didn't like the first "Messiah":

The Accusation

Insults Against Blessed Mary, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).

"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).


The Accusation
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Oh, they were just joshing...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:55 pm 
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THE TALMUD
Judaism's Holiest Book


The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."
The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may also be seen in the case of the Black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians have more knowledge of the Old Testament than the Israelis.


Some Teachings of the Talmud:
Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.
Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Non-Jews are Not Human
Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men"). Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Jews are Divine
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status
Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).
Sanhedrin 76a . God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Abodah Zarah 67b . "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?"


READ MORE - http://radioislam.org/talmud/talmud2.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:36 pm 
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Acharya, so why would Jews include Jesus in the Talmud? Could that be a proof that he did exist?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:20 pm 
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"The Christ Myth"

"...[T]here is no mention of Jesus in contemporary literature, either Jewish or Pagan. Authentic history is absolutely silent as to such a personality. The only record of his supposed life on earth is found in the Gospels of the New Testament, in certain epistles ascribed to Paul, in certain statements by the earliest "Fathers" of the Christian church, in certain legends contained in the miscellaneous portions of the Jewish Talmud, and in a very few allusions by Pagan writers. But not one of these sources is contemporary with the career of Jesus...." (Elizabeth Evans)

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:43 pm 
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So in other words, Elizabeth Evans doesn't know what she is talking about. Is that the point you are trying to make, Tat Tvam Asi?

As you can see the Jewish Talmud does speak about Jesus and Mary:

"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

The Accusation
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."


Source - http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:05 pm 
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From what I've read, the Talmud was written some time around 400 AD and continued for some time thereafter.

The point is that the story had already been around for a while and these Jewish priests had written 'slandering stories' to try and combat the accusations that were directed towards the Jewish religious leadership in the already existing Christian mythology.

This seems plainly clear.

These references were made well after Josephus, by a couple hundred years, and Josephus isn't even considered credible. In edition, the Talmud appears to be written well after the "Council of Nicea" and the empirical enforcement of the "Christian Mythology" on the nations of the Roman Empire.

That's what she and everyone else seem to be getting at.

Here's a very basic encyclopedia passage on the issue:

"Its final redaction probably belongs to the end of the fourth century, but the individual scholars who brought it to its present form cannot be fixed with assurance. By this time Christianity had become the state religion of the Roman Empire and Jerusalem the holy city of Christendom. In 325 CE Constantine, the first Christian emperor, said “let us have nothing in common with this odious people”. This policy made a Jew an outcast and pauper. The compilers of the Jerusalem Talmud consequently lacked the time to produce a work of the quality they had intended. The text is evidently incomplete and is not easy to follow. Any further work on the Jerusalem Talmud probably came to an abrupt end in 425 C.E., when Theodosius II suppressed the Patriarchate and put an end to the practice of formal scholarly ordination".

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:48 pm 
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Now don't take this as gospel. I'm only grasping at straws, but in Matthew there are 4 women of ill-repute in Joseph's family tree: Tamar, Rehab, Ruth, and the wife of Uriah (who had her husband killed to marry David, if I remember correctly). Now according to James Gardner, in one of Abraxas's podcasts (The Jesus fable), long about the second century (which is about the time the Gospels were being written and all) the Jews were saying, "You're saviour is, not only not a saviour, but his mother was an adultress, so he's cursed." Now mind you, the writers were using the OT and other old texts, such as virgin birth texts to come up with Jesus's story, so they were trying to tie him to so called "historical" OT texts. Stories about Jesus were coming about and the Jewish one Jesus is the son of an adultresses union between Mary and a Roman soldier named Pantera. The gospel writers were answering criticism and the writers of the gospels decided to give him a virgin birth, which then made Jesus "important". Thus, they supposedly conteracted the Jewish slander.

You can hear James Gardner talk about this on Abraxas's site: http://www.thegodabovegod.com/ Go to the first player and scroll down to James Gardner on the Jesus Fable.

Thing is, I'm only tying all of this together through all of that, but I think that is part of what it is all about. Now how the four women of ill-repute tie in, I'm not sure. Bob Price explained it to me once, but I forgotten what he said, but it had something to do with Mary and her standing of not being a woman of good repute. So, this is all fitting together slowly, but that is what I gather of it so far. I'm sure if I keep researching it, I will have a clearer answer, but that is what I have so far on the subject.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:51 pm 
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I'm just quoting the date James Gardner gave for the Jewish Jesus story. I don't know what the date really is on it.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:01 pm 
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http://www.truthbeknown.com/cutner.htm


The "Testimony" of Jews

"It has always mystified believers and assorted other historicizers that the story of Jesus Christ appears in no contemporary historical record. Of at least 40 writers of the first several decades of the Christian era, including philosophers and historians, not one mentions Christ, Christians or Christianity. With such a suspicious development concerning a man who "supposedly shook up the world," apologists have been forced to resort to a few pitiful and inadequate "references" in non-Christian sources dating to decades later. Cutner provides an astute analysis of the purported references to Jesus in secular literature, including supposed Jewish "testimony" such as the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus and the Talmud. In the first place, the authors of these texts are not witnesses at all, having lived many decades to centuries after the supposed advent of Christ. Secondly, it is evident that (non-Christian) Jews of the second century had no clue as to any "historical" Jesus. In the second century, we get a clear picture of Jewish disbelief in the "historical Christ" from the Jew Trypho in Justin's Dialogue with him, in which Justin portrays Trypho as questioning the very historicity of Jesus:

But Christ if he is come, and is anywhere, is unknown... But you, having got an idle story by the end, do form yourself an imaginary Christ, and for his sake you foolishly and inconsiderately rush headlong into dangers...

It is quite evident that the standard apologist pretense that "the Jews never doubted that Jesus existed" is utterly false; yet, it will be repeated endlessly. The other dead horse continually beaten by Christian apologists is the infamous blurb in the massive works of Josephus called the "Testimonium Flavianum" ("TF"). This short passage glaringly sandwiched in between a litany of Pilate's deeds is a gushing precis of the Christian tale that need not be repeated here. The arguments against its authenticity are many and have been reiterated ad nauseam, which is why they were not repeated in The Christ Conspiracy. Further detail, however, is provided in Suns of God. Recently, Doherty composed a lengthy refutation of the TF, as have others before him. In fact, the TF had been so thoroughly debunked by the turn of the 20th century that few credible Christian scholars even mentioned it in their proofs of Christianity. Those who have truly studied the subject are aware of these facts; yet, a vocal majority continue to wave about this passage in Josephus, either as wholly genuine or as containing "some" authenticity under a Christian lacquer. A handful even speculate that the TF replaced some other mention of Jesus by Josephus. Concerning the TF, Cutner states:

How any reader of this passage, knowing that Josephus was a Jew and proud of his race, could imagine that he had written it, is one of the most mysterious puzzles connected with the Jesus problem. The whole paragraph shrieks forgery; it aroused the most scathing contempt from Gibbon, and most Christian theologians, thoroughly ashamed of its unmitigated imposture, have denounced it in no unmeasured terms.... Baring-Gould, writing in 1874 in his Lost and Hostile Gospels, had hardly patience dealing with it. "One may be, perhaps, accused of killing dead birds, if one examines and discredits the passage," he says, contemptuously.

The early Church fathers, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, knew nothing about the passage. The first Christian writer to call attention to it was Eusebius (about 320 A.D.) but even later Christians than he ignored it. Eminent modern Christians like Chalmers, Milman, Farrar, Keim, Hooykaas, and a number of others all rejected it, though some rather shame-facedly claimed that there may have been a passage about Jesus which was suppressed by Christians and the present one substituted. Yet in spite of all this wholesale rejection by their own authorities, many Christians never scruple using Josephus as a witness for Jesus outside the Bible whenever they can do so unchallenged. (105)

Modern apologists unabashedly, and with apparent ignorance of these facts, continue to raise up the specter of Josephus, reflecting a very shabby educational system. It should be noted that the various early Christian defenders of the faith mentioned by Cutner were for the most part extremely well acquainted with the works of Josephus; indeed, it was Christians who preserved Josephus's works for posterity. Furthermore, as have others, Cutner also dispenses with the second blurb in Josephus held up by apologists as "evidence" of Christ's existence, the passage in Antiquities referring to the death of James, terming him "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ":

This clause is just as barefaced a forgery as the other passage. In any case, this death is put seven years before the death of James the Just, who is considered by the primitive Church to be the "brother" of Jesus." (106)

Cutner further relates that the Christian authority Baring-Gould not only considered these two passages to be forgeries but spilled considered ink attempting to explain why Josephus was silent on the matter of Christ, Christianity and Christians. Baring-Gould further wonders at the Pagan critic Celsus's apparent inability to find any Jewish authority to verify the gospel story:

"It is remarkable that Celsus, living in the middle of the second century, and able to make inquiries of aged Jews whose lives had extended from the first century, should have been able to find out next to nothing about Jesus and his disciples, except what he read in the Gospels. this is proof that no traditions concerning Jesus had been preserved by the Jews, apart from those contained in the Gospels, Canonical and Apocryphal." (107)

As concerns the Talmud, that enormous collection of Jewish law and commentary on the Torah/Tenach/Old Testament, the main body of laws called the "Mishna" has practically nothing to say about Jesus or Christianity. It is only in the Gemara, or commentary on the Mishna, that we find any sort of mention of Christ and Christians. The writing of the Talmud is traditionally placed as having been begun in the third century and continued for at least two centuries afterwards. Obviously, the Talmud is not an "eyewitness" account of the events of the Christian tale. In fact, whatever statements are made in the Talmud are in response to later Christian claims, according to Christian legends already in existence and not as a record of actual events. Therefore, the Talmud is worthless as a non-Christian source demonstrating the historicity of Christ. Concerning the Talmud, Baring-Gould again expressed his surprise at the Mishna's lack of knowledge regarding Christ, Christianity and Christians. Cutner also remarks:

...supposing there had never been a Jesus Christ going about "doing good" and that he was a literary creation slowly built up in the second century, would not that account for the silence of the Mishna? Why should the rabbis know anything about these literary fictions of a Jesus represented so variously by different communities, each probably with a gospel of its own, and which were only centuries later separated into the "true" and "false" ones? (95)

As we can see, when the claims regarding Jewish "testimony" are investigated closely, they fall completely apart, as do, in fact, those regarding other non-Christian sources, such as Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius, which Cutner also demonstrates."

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:19 pm 
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November wrote:
So in other words, Elizabeth Evans doesn't know what she is talking about. Is that the point you are trying to make, Tat Tvam Asi?

As you can see the Jewish Talmud does speak about Jesus and Mary:

"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

The Accusation
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."


Source - http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html


Yes...just what Tat said above. The fact Jesus is in the Talmud is a result of the legends already long having effect in the Empire when the Talmud was developed into written form and these remarks in the Talmud are not only a reaction, but intended as a provocation, as a dialectic opposing force--a counter-force among Jewry (whose Talmud is opposed to everyone not a Jew to begin with) with especial focus on the New Christ-myth. After all, the new Christ-myth did incorporate the exposure of the Levitical/Pharisee teachings imposed upon Jewry.

The authors and contributors to the Talmud were fully aware of the non-historical Christ-myth. However, the Talmudics would make very good use of the institution that was built up around Christianity, because it was a branch creation of their kind also. For the Talmudics to keep their flock separate from the rest of humanity, they always needed a real or imaginary "anti" force to exist. If the gospels carried an anti-Talmudic (Levitic/Pharisaic) tone to it, this was approprately suited to their purposes that it contained good doses of the truth about them in it!

This is a difficult thing for people to wrap their minds around...that this "exclusivist" cult would create an opposing force by allowing measures of truth to exist while carrying out their continued deceptive agenda. However, it is one THEY control. This is my take on it, and it has been borne out by history and yet to this day. We are dealing with a clandestine heretical heirarchal 'secret-cult' embedded within Jewry and through them in other religious and political bodies around the world.

So, absolutely, just because the Talmud speaks of 'Jesus" and in such defamatory tones, does not infer that 'Jesus', Mary or any of the other mythical characters in the New or Old "Covenants" actually existed.

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