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 Post subject: Dead Sea Scrolls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:24 pm 
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What are your thoughts on the infamous Dead Sea Scrolls?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:16 pm 
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The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described
in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish
background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities
between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and
those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable
rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting
is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided
themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the
structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according
to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes
of Israel.



Gee, I wonder what's so special about the number twelve.....

If anything, I think the scrolls add ammunition to the arguments in SoG, as do the Nag Hamadi codex's.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:22 pm 
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Appearently, the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), found in 1947 didn't add anything to the story of Jesus at all.

There are many references to the DSS throughout the work of Acharya.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:58 pm 
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FT, will you please provide the question you received regarding the DSS, so I may have some material to work with here?

The DSS has provided some very important data as concerns the environment in which Christianity fermented. I do cover the scrolls in a bit of detail in both Christ Con and Suns of God. The scrolls do not, however, validate the existence of Jesus Christ, other than as a fictional character possibly based in part on the Teacher of Righteousness.

I think you guys are going to love my latest creation, which is an ebook about "who was Jesus" designed for the Christian lay public.... It should be done soon! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Although the Thering conjecture is of course wrong, (I think she is a DD so what else could we expect) I think her work is still worth reading because of the historical background it supplies. She makes a good case that Jewish evangelism for political ends (of course!) was a major influence in the era's development. this is important because it show how the political/clerical class conspired to use religion to acquire and consolidate power and shows the methods they used. She did convince me that the Teacher of Righteousness was "John the Baptist" But when she tries to identify The Wicked Priest with the historical jesus the strands of argument grow thin and strained.
[jesus & the dead sea scrolls by barbara thering]

BTW another good backgound book for this era is _The Chosen People_ by John Allegro


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Oldragon666 wrote:
Although the Thering conjecture is of course wrong, (I think she is a DD so what else could we expect) I think her work is still worth reading because of the historical background it supplies. She makes a good case that Jewish evangelism for political ends (of course!) was a major influence in the era's development. this is important because it show how the political/clerical class conspired to use religion to acquire and consolidate power and shows the methods they used. She did convince me that the Teacher of Righteousness was "John the Baptist" But when she tries to identify The Wicked Priest with the historical jesus the strands of argument grow thin and strained.
[jesus & the dead sea scrolls by barbara thering]

BTW another good backgound book for this era is _The Chosen People_ by John Allegro


Thanks. Yes, Christianity was undoubtedly a political movement by messianic Jews, Samaritans, Hebrews and other Israelites trying to usurp the reigning ideology.

In Suns of God, I make the argument that John the Baptist is Oannes the Fish God who was widely worshipped in that very area (Syria, Jordan) at that time. His recognition of Jesus as the messiah as undoubtedly a deliberate usurpation of this widespread and powerful Oannes cult. This is the same modus operandi continuously used by priesthoods over the millennia.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Acharya wrote:
FT, will you please provide the question you received regarding the DSS, so I may have some material to work with here?

The DSS has provided some very important data as concerns the environment in which Christianity fermented. I do cover the scrolls in a bit of detail in both Christ Con and Suns of God. The scrolls do not, however, validate the existence of Jesus Christ, other than as a fictional character possibly based in part on the Teacher of Righteousness.

I think you guys are going to love my latest creation, which is an ebook about "who was Jesus" designed for the Christian lay public.... It should be done soon! :twisted:


The questions I get about the DSS are very vague because folks don't know much about the DSS at all. I think they're not sure who to trust on this.

It would be nice to have a few basic facts on the DSS - when were they written & by whom? I think you covered a lot in your work but it would be useful to have a few things on hand here.

I like how you pointed out on page 466 in SoG (as well as Christ Con) that the DSS character was eventually morphed into the Jesus character. The DSS "represent archetypical, allegorical and astrotheological motifs."

page 468 at the bottom: The "son of God" also is found in the Dead Sea collection, in "The Son of God" scroll 4Q246, which refers to the "coming kingly or messianic figure" as the "son of God" or "son of Most High"

Yes, I would appreciate an ebook about "who was Jesus" designed for the Christian lay public. I'd like to get xians onboard to deeper understand that their religion is clearly solar mythology & astrotheology. I wish they'd stop trying to force America into becoming a "Christian Nation".

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:41 pm 
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There is two things I would like to add to the mix here. Any feedback is appreciated.

First, I believe the book _The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception_ by Michael Baigent is one anybody interested in the DSS should read. I think it makes it clear that the clerics effectively locked these documents away from us for 50 years while they worked on the best way to deal with any problems they might cause the church/synagogue. I suspect that there is damn little trustworthy "scholarly analysis" available at this point. (And yes I am aware that Baigent also wrote _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_; read _DSS Deception_ and let the arguments speak for themeselves.

Second, a key argument of Thering's that I neglected to mention relates directly to this clerical deception. Namely, the dating of the DSS is based the dating of the scripts used. That can be tricky; especially when a document is written in an informal hand. Thering maintains that a key document used for dating the DSS is such an informal one. Take this document out of the equation and the dating could easily be 100 years later. Of course the church HATES that idea. It puts the thing smack in the middle of the "gospel" era.

I think the gist of this is: If the DSS simply speak for themselves the "Essenes" might say: "We weren't just neighbors, we were among the creators of the whole fraud."


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:57 am 
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The Essenes probably knew what they were creating and didn't intend it to be a fraud. They most likely wanted to modernize and streamline the jewish religion..........but extremists got ahold of it and literalized it.


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 Post subject: The Essenes, literally
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:27 am 
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I hope my own previous post is not taken literally. In the popular usatoday type press the essenes are portrayed as reclusive acetics. The DSS as I read them seem to show a very zealot type of belief system. They wanted to purify the religion. They thought the time was at hand for god to elevate them to glorious world rulership. They isolated themselves from the mainline because they were against the modernizers (hellenizers) that were in control. In a world where the jewish state was not destroyed by the romans what they created could very well have become the modern world's "christianity." When the jewish state perished many of the ideas of the essenes were most useful if turned on their heads into the hellenized judaism they so hated. Their enemies recognized the power of their work and coopted it. We know the church doesn't want too many folks to know how much of xianity is a bastard copy of others' work.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:14 pm 
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Hercules

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Quote:
I think it makes it clear that the clerics effectively locked these documents away from us for 50 years while they worked on the best way to deal with any problems they might cause the church/synagogue.


One of the reasons the Scrolls were not made public for so long was the problem with accurately translating the many small pieces that were discovered.New scrolls were being discovered as late as 1957.Seven of the scrolls were sold by the Bedouin,who discovered them,to an antiquities dealer,which took some time to recover.They were apparantly written between approximately 200 B.C.E. to 68 C.E.Some were texts from the Hebrew Bible.The Essenes may not have believed that Jesus was important enough to write about,which was the sentiment of many Jews at that time,if the scrolls can be accurately dated to His lifetime.There is one text called the "Hanging of Yeshua," that portrays Jesus as an ordinary blasphemous
Jew.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:52 pm 
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jwest posted

Quote:

Quote:
I think it makes it clear that the clerics effectively locked these documents away from us for 50 years while they worked on the best way to deal with any problems they might cause the church/synagogue.



One of the reasons the Scrolls were not made public for so long was the problem with accurately translating the many small pieces that were discovered.New scrolls were being discovered as late as 1957.Seven of the scrolls were sold by the Bedouin,who discovered them,to an antiquities dealer,which took some time to recover.They were apparantly written between approximately 200 B.C.E. to 68 C.E.Some were texts from the Hebrew Bible.The Essenes may not have believed that Jesus was important enough to write about,which was the sentiment of many Jews at that time,if the scrolls can be accurately dated to His lifetime.There is one text called the "Hanging of Yeshua," that portrays Jesus as an ordinary blasphemous
Jew.


jwest you quoted my post (strangely without attribution) only to rebut my points. Except you offer nothing to support your assertion. If you had taken the time to read the books I recommended in my post you would find that both of your points/positions are thouroughly addressed and completely discredited.

_The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception_ by Michael Baigent

_Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls_ by Barbara Thering Th.D.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:10 am 
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Hercules

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It wasn't intended to rebut your post.I agree that the wait was to avoid problems with the church.I wasn't trying to prove your statement was wrong,only that it was necessary to be as accurate as possible in translating the scrolls to avoid at least one problem.There were many problems with the church,I agree.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:12 am 
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Hercules

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As for the attribution,I am still in the process of learning to post quotes.I think that i have probably been leaving everyone's name off of their quotes.
My apologies.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:06 am 
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Bast

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All books of the Old Testament, except Esther, were found in the DSS. And they serve to show us how accurate our modern translations actually are. Amazing.

Nine New Testament fragments were found in Cave 7. And they agree with our modern translations aswell.

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