Freethought Nation

presented by Acharya S and TruthBeKnown.com, online since 1995

It is currently Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:19 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


hello

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:08 am 
Offline
Bast

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:12 pm
Posts: 147
If you want a better response maybe you should reword your question, unless you expect everyone to read up on the bioligists who have influenced your ideas about a creator.

I believe the problem lies in your/their assertion "what are the chances"-around how the symmetrical DNA developed from random combinations of the elements, particularly proteins. But as it turns out DNA is not perfectly symmetrical, along the same line of thinking when we look at the sun, which also appears to be perfectly symmetrical, why do we not claim that this is proof of a creator? But let us suppose that a magical being created DNA, we are back to the same question with "who created their DNA". Also even supposing that the earth is around 5 billion years old (in its current form) are we to believe that frozen objects from space did not penetrate our relatively weak atmosphere, objects such as these can be untold of years old, I wonder if tyour biologists plugged that into their equation?

I have a problem with your term "intelligent design" as when we use "intelligence" it always implies a being behind the intelligence. I like the word creator better because it does not always imply a being-the moon is the Creator of the tides.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:45 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
RoR wrote:
I have no idea how or when God did it, but I rather think that he did.

Well you certainly "rushed" right in here with this assertion. I suppose you feel you have the "right" to do so. :lol:

We're just having fun here in any case RightOfRush. In the above quote you've given the impression that you used to be non-committal (agnostic) and know you have committed to a belief in a God referred to as "him". This does tend to give off the impression of you believe in a Patriarchal deity who is intelligent and created human DNA. You go further by suggesting that you think the mystics such as the Gnostics were correct for believing in a creator.

But with the mystics and esoterics we're dealing with metaphor and allegory, not literalism. Granted they did see the universe and existence as a sort of eternal mind, but that mind is simply the whole and the personification deities serve to point back at mere existence as a whole and it's mystery factor - why does it even exist at all? So we find a God with no beginning or end full of wonder and mystery which is symbolizing the mysteries of existence.
Dan Barker wrote:
But let us suppose that a magical being created DNA, we are back to the same question with "who created their DNA".

Dan nailed it right here. The creator question gets pushed back further and further and at some point existence itself has to be the responsible party for the evolutionary process of the universe. God and mere existence are the same thing - inseparable actually. The realm of existence is the creator of all things as it molds and shapes everything into existence out of itself. What is DNA made out of? It's made out of the fabric and structure of existence along with everything else. There are a lot of twists and turns along the way as the evolving process roars on and there's a lot of things that prove unsuitable in the process, in other words the process itself is far from inerrant.

But the process may well be something repetitive. We have no idea how many times this universe may have evolved intelligent life and then faded out only to revive again and repeat the process. Anything is possible. The multiverse scenarios hint at that. And they also hint at the possibility of life elsewhere in an infinite multi-verse. Who does all of the creating? Once again it comes back to existence itself, the one thing that is common to everything. The creator is existence and existence is always creating. It doesn't stop.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:27 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:04 pm
Posts: 9
Here is my question: How can the odds against life beginning by chance of 10 to the 180th power be ignored? How an can an atheist or agnostic maintain their areligious philosophy? Ponder the DNA double helix and be wise, even if very difficult without having Chem 101 & Chem 102 on your transcript.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:52 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2273
Location: Everywhere
RightofRush wrote:
Here is my question: How can the odds against life beginning by chance of 10 to the 180th power be ignored? How an can an atheist or agnostic maintain their areligious philosophy? Ponder the DNA double helix and be wise, even if very difficult without having Chem 101 & Chem 102 on your transcript.

It may well be a natural part of the general evolution of a universe. Not a freak accident by any means. How does the universe look around itself? How does it know itself? Well, on at least one planet it looks around at itself and seeks to know and learn more about itself via the intelligent life forms that are composed out of it's very own properties. Who knows how many other planets in the clusters of clusters of galaxies are serving the very same function. I don't think that it's unreasonable to notice that life seems meant to be from certain perspectives. But the problem is that people want to then take a logic leap back to mythological deities ("Him") as the reason for it.

It may help our understanding of your point if you would expand more on what you think "God" is and how this "God" fits into your intelligent design theory. I would like to see and consider the Gnostic beliefs that give you the idea that they were proponents of the intelligent design theory you've brought up.

How do "The Gnostic Gospels" fit into this equation?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:56 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:02 pm
Posts: 5
I still believe there needs to be a distinction with the texts as far as different groups in the public's eye since most still use the term Gnosticism as an umbrella term without knowing the differences between Valentinian theology and Sethian theology etc. It would be as if a Catholic used the term Protestant without knowing the difference between a Lutheran and a Baptist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:30 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:24 pm
Posts: 4525
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
What is Gnosticism?


_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:22 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:09 pm
Posts: 5
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Thoughts about the Gnostic Gospels?



Sure.

Some of them appear to me to contain the signature of satire and parody.

Here are some examples that I have extracted from an essay I wrote entitled
An alternative chronology for the lost authorship of the Gnostic Gospels

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/D ... uction.htm

Quote:

In the Gnostic Gospels .....

"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition" (Woody Allen)

.
In the Gospel of Peter, Jesus is lead from the tomb by two giant figures whose heads reach to the sky. Jesus's head is described as being higher than the sky; while the cross , not content with immobility and silence, follows along behind Jesus at a walk, and speaks its own talk. It says "Yeah !"

In the Gospel of Philip, "Jesus came to crucify the world", but exactly where did Jesus often kiss Mary? On her forehead? on her cheek? on her lips? The manuscript has been damaged at that precise spot. Jesus could have often kissed Mary anywhere.

In the Gospel of Judas, Judas is presented as one of twelve "daimons". None of the twelve "daimons" can look at Jesus in the eyes. Jesus is presented as a "Head Daimion" or sorceror.

In The Gospel of Mary , Mary is presented in having exclusive knowledge not given to Peter. As a result, Peter is peeved. "Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?"

In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Child Jesus as a malevolent trickster wizard. Death and destruction follow the child jesus. A child disperses water that Jesus has collected, Jesus then curses him, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse, found in the Greek text A, and Latin versions. The Greek text B doesn't mention Jesus cursing the boy, and simply says that the child "went on, and after a little he fell and gave up the ghost," Another child dies when Jesus curses him when he apparently accidentally bumps into him When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, they are miraculously struck blind by Jesus. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but arrogantly tries to teach the teacher instead.

In the Infancy Gospel of James, the Child Jesus is born in a cave with its Mithraic overtones.

In The Gospel of Nicodemus, the story is presented as being authored by two zombies who, while wandering around Jerusalem after the mass resurrection following Jesus's resurrection, are apprehended by the authorities, and are given pens and paper. The two resurrected scribes, known as Leucius & Karinus, independently record the Descent and Ascension, Jesus meets Adam. At the end, after finding that the accounts were word for word identical they provide a copy for Pilate, and a copy for the Jews, the two scribes disappear with a flash of light.

In the Gospel of Gamaliel Pilate weeps over the shroud.

The Gospel of Bartholomew "deliberately imitates the Lucan Acts"




However the Gnostic Acts provide a greater wealth of this signature of satire and/or parody.

Today we would call them "Monty Pythonish" renditions of the canonical books of the new testament.

At the time of Nicaea however, everyone would have been coming to terms with the Bible.

Constantine had elevated an obscure sect with its holy writ to the purple.

Here is what Eusebius says about its reception:

[quote=Big E]

"the sacred matters of inspired teaching
were exposed to the most shameful ridicule
in the very theaters of the unbelievers.


How Controversies originated at Alexandria through Matters relating to Arius
Eusebius, "Life of Constantine", Ch. LXI

[/quote]

In summary I think that the Gnostic Gospels and Acts were all authored after Nicaea
and as a reaction to the sudden and unexpected appearance of the Constantine Bible
as the holy writ of the Graeco-Roman Empire. The Graeco was ripped from the empire
and it became Roman-Christian. According to Charles Freeman the Greek intellectual
tradition was suppressed (by the 4th century Christian regime) for 1000 years.

In the above essay I provide citations to evidence and discuss the evidence against
this hypothesis (that the Gnostic reaction was post-Nicaean).


NOTE: The essay contains one error in that we do not have a C14 date for the Nag Hammadi Codices
and therefore the statistical implications of two C14 citations cannot be so presented. Only the gJudas
has been C14 dated. The Nag Hammadi Codices have apparently not been C14 dated, but are dated
to the mid 4th century by a number of collaborative techniques, the major one being an analysis of
the cartonage of the 12 books.

ENJOY.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Gnostic Gospels
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:02 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:24 pm
Posts: 4525
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Quote:
Gnosticism

"Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Gnosticism, a sect associated with early Christianity. The Gnostics divided the universe into two domains: the visible world and the spiritual one. They believed that a special sort of knowledge, or gnosis, would enable them to escape the evils of the physical world and allow them access to the higher spiritual realm. The Gnostics were regarded as heretics by many of the Church Fathers, but their influence was important in defining the course of early Christianity. A major archaeological discovery in Egypt in the 1940s, when a large cache of Gnostic texts were found buried in an earthenware jar, enabled scholars to learn considerably more about their beliefs."

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group