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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:


Sadly, that post doesn't look like the best title or post that will help you in your quest at that forum. I would recommend editing your post to better reflect your claims for the Jesus of Gamala / King Izas of Adiabene. Making back-handed jabs at mythicism will never help you in any way. Stick with your claims for the Jesus of Gamala / King Izas of Adiabene.



And regarding Mythicism itself, I also find it odd that many of its proponents are reticent to mention the elements of the NT story that we confidently know to be true (obliquely true). Why is this?

Take for instance the 'water to wine' miracle. Now this is a central Catholic 'proof' that Jesus was divine, and yet we know that this was a trick, rather than a miracle. Indeed, we even know who made this trick jug, and we have the original 1st century design too. It was made by Hero of Alexandria, the 1st century's Leonardo da Vinci:
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... tion8.html


As Hero of Alexandria himself said:
"We may also pour in the water first, and then, stopping the vent, pour wine upon it, so as to pour out wine for some, wine and water for others, and mere water for those whom we wish to jest with."


Err, so this miracle was a jest, a joke, and we have known about Hero's trick jugs for centuries. So why has nobody before myself put forward the obvious deduction that Jesus himself was using one of these very same trick jugs? Ok, one can imagine the Catholics keeping it quiet, but what about all those 'honest' historians; and likewise why did the Mythicists not tell us about this trick jug, that was used by the aristocracy and royalty of the East to entertain their guests? These are the aspects of this milennial deciet that I cannot understand.



Ralph.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:00 pm 
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I was going to suggest that perhaps some of the "historical" elements from this one Jesus of many were utilized in the composite of characters combined to create the mythical Jesus character. Alas, the lack of understanding of this issue and antipathy towards the massive body of mythicist literature over the centuries dissuade me from spending time on this one-of-many figure of Jesus of Gamala.

To reiterate, the "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no historical core to the onion.

It's really that simple. Among the historical figures drawn upon to flesh out this mythical figure may have been some of the 20 or so other Jesuses in Josephus and other writings. However, what we are looking at is ancient myth historicized, not history mythologized.

In order to accept a historical core to this onion, we would need to toss out about 90% of our knowledge, based on FACTS from antiquity, such as the ubiquitous solar mythology at the root of much religious ideation and many edifices and artifacts.

Instead of bashing mythicists, it might be a good idea actually to study the case for mythicism, including the huge body of literature dating back centuries. Without knowing that information, one will never understand what one is looking at in the Jesus myth.

So, no, we will not be throwing out 90% of our knowledge any time soon. Nor will we denigrate, ignore and suppress the enormous and widespread tradition of astral religion, astrotheology and solar mythology that spawned Christianity, as can be found in my books. In this regard, interested parties may wish to read my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection in particular, as the solar origin of the Christ myth is laid out quite plainly therein.

Denying the "borrowing" of religious/mythological ideas from numerous cultures around the Mediterranean and beyond, to be rolled into one with the mythical Jesus character, represents a tremendous disservice to all of these other cultures.

For example, the "magic trick" of changing water to wine was also done at the temple of Apollo at Delphi by his priests. It is based significantly on the myth of Dionysus and other solar wine gods bringing rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice. This motif of changing water to wine is hugely important in wine growing regions, based on myths about the solar wine god or goddess. Here is precisely what I mean about being ignorant of mythology and not knowing what one is looking at. As I've demonstrated throughout my writings, most of the rest of the gospel story can be dissected in the same manner.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:06 pm 
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ralfellis wrote:
Take for instance the 'water to wine' miracle. Now this is a central Catholic 'proof' that Jesus was divine, and yet we know that this was a trick, rather than a miracle. Indeed, we even know who made this trick jug, and we have the original 1st century design too. It was made by Hero of Alexandria, the 1st century's Leonardo da Vinci:
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... tion8.html


As Hero of Alexandria himself said:
"We may also pour in the water first, and then, stopping the vent, pour wine upon it, so as to pour out wine for some, wine and water for others, and mere water for those whom we wish to jest with."


Err, so this miracle was a jest, a joke, and we have known about Hero's trick jugs for centuries. So why has nobody before myself put forward the obvious deduction that Jesus himself was using one of these very same trick jugs? Ok, one can imagine the Catholics keeping it quiet, but what about all those 'honest' historians; and likewise why did the Mythicists not tell us about this trick jug, that was used by the aristocracy and royalty of the East to entertain their guests? These are the aspects of this milennial deciet that I cannot understand.


The water to wine motif goes back much further than that though, at least as far back as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, and is related to myths about the inundation. Much like Lucian's explanation of the Adonis river in Lebanon turning into "blood" every year, likewise the ancient Egyptians saw the reddish waters of the annual floods (caused by mountain sediment from melting snow) was viewed as the gods turning its water into wine.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
"... Moreover, at PT 442:820a, Osiris—who was the “first to drink wine” and who taught mankind about the vine, according to Plutarch—is referred to as the “Lord of Wine in the…festival,”7 evoking the wedding feast of Cana in John’s gospel. Regarding the water-to-wine miracle at John 2:3-9, Dr. Neumann remarks that Osiris was a wine god and relates that January 6—supposedly both one of Christ’s several birthdays and the “Feast of Epiphany,” commemorating Jesus turning water into wine—“is also the anniversary of the water-wine transformation performed by Osiris.”1 It should be noted that this miracle occurs only in the gospel of John, again indicating an Egyptian origin.

Another relevant utterance occurs in the Pyramid Text of Unas/Unis/Wenis (W 143/PT 210:130c): “...the water of Unis is wine, like the Sun.”2 This last verse indicates the real meaning behind the miracle of turning water into wine, which is also found in the myth of the Greek god Dionysus 3: To wit, the sun’s ripening of the grape on the vine and fermenting of the grape juice. In this regard, the divinities who turn water to wine are traditionally sun gods, as we contend is the mythical character of Jesus Christ as well.4"

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, pages 292/3

The 'water into wine' motif is also mentioned in 'Who Was Jesus' pages 142/3, 'Suns of God' pages 99/100 as well as 'Christ Conspiracy' page 195.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:28 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
The water to wine motif goes back much further than that though, at least as far back as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, and is related to myths about the inundation.


Acharya wrote:
I

Instead of bashing mythicists, it might be a good idea actually to study the case for mythicism, including the huge body of literature dating back centuries.

For example, the "magic trick" of changing water to wine was also done at the temple of Apollo at Delphi by his priests. It is based significantly on the myth of Dionysus and other solar wine gods bringing rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice. Here is precisely what I mean about being ignorant of mythology and not knowing what one is looking at. As I've demonstrated throughout my writings, most of the rest of the gospel story can be dissected in the same manner.



We are not talking about a water-to-wine motif here, we are talking about a real trick jug, that we still have the designs for.

Yes, it is highly likely that the motif had been around for millennia, because that is what vintners do - they turn water into wine as a part of natural processes controlled 'by the gods'. But that would make this a perfect subject for magicians to emulate. And we know that Hero of Alexandria has emulated it, because we still have his designs.

So here we have a biblical description of water to wine, mentioned not in respect of the gods, but in respect of a secular wedding ceremony. It would seem pretty obvious to me that this is a description of one of Hero's trick jugs, and yet you take the discussion off onto mythological motifs and ignore the real hard evidence we have for this being a conjuring trick.

Why?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:34 am 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
The 'water into wine' motif is also mentioned in 'Who Was Jesus' pages 142/3, 'Suns of God' pages 99/100 as well as 'Christ Conspiracy' page 195.


Yes, but the trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria was not mentioned in these books, was it?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:00 am 
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ralfellis wrote:
We are not talking about a water-to-wine motif here, we are talking about a real trick jug, that we still have the designs for.

Yes, it is highly likely that the motif had been around for millennia, because that is what vintners do - they turn water into wine as a part of natural processes controlled 'by the gods'. But that would make this a perfect subject for magicians to emulate. And we know that Hero of Alexandria has emulated it, because we still have his designs.

So here we have a biblical description of water to wine, mentioned not in respect of the gods, but in respect of a secular wedding ceremony. It would seem pretty obvious to me that this is a description of one of Hero's trick jugs, and yet you take the discussion off onto mythological motifs and ignore the real hard evidence we have for this being a conjuring trick.

Why?

ralfellis wrote:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
The 'water into wine' motif is also mentioned in 'Who Was Jesus' pages 142/3, 'Suns of God' pages 99/100 as well as 'Christ Conspiracy' page 195.

Yes, but the trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria was not mentioned in these books, was it?

Well, what we do here at Freethought Nation is research to trace back these mythological motifs as close to their origin as possible so, yeah, we are very much interested in 'Water into Wine' motifs that have religious significance more so than just tricks for the sake of magic for entertaining guests. I don't recall the bible claiming Jesus was a "magician" asking the disciples to watch him pull a rabbit out of his hat (Rockey & Bullwinkle - couldn't resist) but, I do recall them calling him a carpenter (even though I'm not aware of him ever actually building anything).

Kidding aside, I'm glad you brought it up but, the error you're making in your claim that the magic jugs of the Hero of Alexandria are the same as found in the biblical account rests in the size and description of the containers. The magic jugs made by the Hero of Alexandria are hand held pitchers while John 2:6 specifically states that there were 6 stone jars "each holding twenty or thirty gallons."

That sounds far larger than the hand-held magic jug of Alexandria. It does show how common the 'water into wine' motif was but, this is clearly not directly related to the biblical account:

John 2:6 "Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons."

In John 2:3-4 Jesus did not sound happy at all to perform this party trick.

Quote:
Turning Water into Wine

"...tangible physical and archaeological evidence of a "Christian" motif in pre-Christian times, within the sanctuary of the Greek temple of Apollo at Corinth (c.540 BCE)—where Paul preached to the Corinthians—exists to this day a stone sluice used by the Corinthian Pagan priesthood to turn water into wine. At one end of this sluice water was poured in, while a priest in a hidden compartment diverted the water and poured wine out the other end. This water-to-wine contraption was created at least two centuries before the Christian era. Could it be that, rather than a "true story," the water-to-wine motif in John's gospel was based in part on this previously known "miracle," which was part of the priestly repertoire?"

- 'Who Was Jesus' page 143

Obviously, we are not "ignoring the real hard evidence." It just seems like you keep trying to force square pegs into round holes to put this puzzle together. I don't see the magic trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria as any sort of smoking gun here on this issue specifically related to Christianity, however, again, it does show how common the 'water into wine' motif was.

The 'water into wine' motif is clearly based on the solar myth of converting water/rain with the sun's photosynthesis to grow the grapes so that they may be turned into wine. In ancient times wherever wine was created the wine gods and goddesses always appeared to follow.

* Btw, Acharya has been to the cite at Corinth; that's where she did her post grad studies. She has seen the 'water into wine' mechanism at the Greek temple of Apollo.


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 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:59 am 
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Moderator note: this post was moved to here from the "loaves and fishes" thread. Ralph, this is your thread - keep your posts right here.

An interesting discussion. My view is similar to Robert's, except that I invoke the Precessional Zodiac rather more. The Loaves and Fishes 'miracle' was indeed astrological, however:


Bread...
In Nazarene Judaism, 'bread' was often used to refer to knowledge. See Math 15:26. Jesus called this woman a dog because she was not Jewish nor Nazarene, and was not entitled to Nazarene wisdom. See also the discussion about 'leaven' (yeast), which even the disciples did not understand.

So the 'feeding the 5,000' is about feeding them knowledge. But what sort of knowledge?



Fish...
This is precessional astrology. In AD 10, the Precessional Age (Great Month) of Aries turned into Pisces. This is why Jesus was born as a Lamb of God (Aries) but became a Fisher of Men (Pisces). This is why the symbol of Christianity became the fish. This is why the pope wears the Fisher Ring. This is why Arthurian legend followed the line of Fisher Kings (as well as the Holy Grail). This is why Jesus is so often portrayed inside the Vesica Piscis.

It was for this reason that there were two fishes in this gospel story, because this is the symbol for Pisces. It is also the reason for the 12 baskets left over, for this represents the constellations.

.

Thus the Loaves and Fishes 'miracle' was simply a lecture about precessional astronomy - the Knowledge of the Precessional Age (the Great Month) of Pisces.

And we know that astrology was central to the biblical story, because the disciples ask Jesus what the sign will be at his comming, and at the 'end of the world'. Math 24:3 But actually, they don't ask about the 'end of the world', but rather the 'end of the aeon' - the end of the Age.

There was only one Age ending and beginning at the turn of the first century, and that was the Precessional Great Age (the Great Month) of Aries and Pisces. Quite obviously, the disciples were asking what the Precessional Age (Great Months) were at this time. And Jesus would have replied: " Aries has just ended and Pisces is just beginning".


And we know that the Jews venerated Aries, because all the patriarchs were called Shepherds. Likewise, Alexander the Great and Ptollemy III among others always wore the horns of the ram, because they too understood that theybwere Kings of Aries. While Jesus understood that he was a King of Pisces, the first of the Arthurian Fisher Kings.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

I don't recall the bible claiming Jesus was a "magician" asking the disciples to watch him pull a rabbit out of his hat (Rockey & Bullwinkle - couldn't resist) but, I do recall them calling him a carpenter (even though I'm not aware of him ever actually building anything).


Actually, Jesus was visited by the three Magi (the Three Magicians) at his birth. While the primary disciple of John the Baptist was Simon Magus (Simon the Magician).

I cannot imagine anyone before or since, who was more closely allied to the magic circle.





Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

The magic jugs made by the Hero of Alexandria are hand held pitchers while John 2:6 specifically states that there were 6 stone jars "each holding twenty or thirty gallons."

That sounds far larger than the hand-held magic jug of Alexandria. It does show how common the 'water into wine' motif was but, this is clearly not directly related to the biblical account:


Ok, if you don't like Hero's portable water-to-wine jug, then try this one:

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... ion59.html

Or how about these?

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... ion23.html
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... ion24.html
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProjec ... ion39.html

Just ask Hero of Alexandria, and he will produce one to any proportion or specification. He did, after all, make a dozen different versions of this trick.



Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

* Btw, Acharya has been to the site at Corinth; that's where she did her post grad studies. She has seen the 'water into wine' mechanism at the Greek temple of Apollo.


And I was there the day before yesterday - and it was snowing. Your point is??




Freethinkaluva22 wrote:


Atkinson is very funny, as always. However, I would be more impressed if he did a sketch about Muhummad and his Dead Poets Society. Why did he miss that one out?



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:51 pm 
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On page 540 Figure 17.3 you claim: "Trick jug devised by Hero of Alexandria and used by King Jesus at his wedding at Cana."

That claim is false as the size and descriptions do not match John 2:6 and neither do any of the other images in those links you provided above. If you find one that matches the description in John 2:6 then let me know.

ralfellis wrote:
Actually, Jesus was visited by the three Magi (the Three Magicians) at his birth.

I'm not aware of the Magi performing any magic tricks. I've heard them described as Persian astrologers but not magicians. But, even if that were true what does that have to do with Jesus and your "Hero of Alexandria" and the magic trick wine jug?

Also, lets not gloss over the fact that there's no suggestion by John that this was any type of magic trick; we are led to believe that this was another miracle performed by Jesus as if they never ever heard of any 'water into wine' magic tricks before, which seems highly unlikely considering how long it had already been around and it really doesn't take much to figure out. At least John and the other supposed disciples should've been in on the scam, but they weren't. So, did Jesus lie to them all - or is this most likely another 'borrowed' myth? In fact, in John 4:46-54 Jesus goes back to Cana, somewhat famous, for this water to wine miracle and is asked by an Official to save his sick son from death.

Ralph, so far, these are simply not strong arguments to make for a historical Jesus as they are easily picked apart and shown not to be any type of direct evidence related to Jesus or Christianity. So, what are your very best, strongest arguments that you've verified and confirmed with credible evidence that are directly related to Jesus &/or Christianity proving your Jesus of Gamala / King Izas of Adiabene thesis?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:31 pm 
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ralfellis wrote:
We are not talking about a water-to-wine motif here,


I am. FTL is.

ralfellis wrote:
we are talking about a real trick jug, that we still have the designs for.


I don't see a dichotomy there. I certainly never set up such a dichotomy. If you are familiar with discussions we've had on this site, we very often include historical phenomenon as a precedent for what later Christian authors (or other cultures as well) incorporated into their own mythology. Just as I made the point earlier of Santa being a mix of legend and fact, so too is my view of much of the New Testament and early non-canonical works.

For instance, the alleged solar eclipse that took place during the crucifixion. You'll never find anyone here denying the existence of real solar eclipses and arguing they are a purely mythological invention.
But you will likewise not find anyone here obstinate to the fact that this real-life phenomenon was incorporated into fiction as well as non-fiction.

My bringing up of the Egyptian belief that the Nile turned to wine, or similar myths such as Dionysus making a spring produce wine, etc., was simply for the reason I said- to show that this motif is much older and much more wide-spread than just Hero of Alexandria, thus his works are not the only candidate for inspiration upon Christianity. And like I said, I do not see, nor set up, a dichotomy between the trick described by Hero or the myths described by Egyptians & Greeks. All of it existed as an option for the New Testament authors to make use of if they so chose. Like an all you can eat buffet, one is free to decorate the plate with anything the buffet has to offer, be it meat or veggies or a mixture of both. Be it myth or history or a mixture of both.

As even you went on to admit-
ralfellis wrote:
"But that would make this a perfect subject for magicians to emulate."
Which was precisely my point. If tricks described by Hero were possibly emulated from earlier myths, and if the New Testament authors emulated those magicians, or hell, if even the real Jesus himself emulated those magicians, then at the root of it, you still have an ancient myth trickling down into the New Testament.

When I saw Criss Angel walk on water on his show Mind Freak, the first thing that came to my mind, as it did for most of the viewers, was the tale of Jesus walking on water. We all naturally concluded that was Angel's inspiration. He was emulating an earlier story.

Yet when I read Shonen Jump and I see the characters in Naruto walking on water, I don't react along the lines of "well, Criss angel did this, and did so very recently, and we can figure out how he did, so it's likely that this is how Naruto did it" and then chalk that up as potential evidence that a real historical Naruto once existed and was the influence for Kishimoto's fiction. There are just too many other things about the Naruto manga that smack of fiction and deliberate myth-making that any traces of its content taken from actual history are dismal and interpreting its content as myth becomes the succinct and default modus operandi. While real-life historical influences are certainly there, they are few and far between and interpreting Naruto's content as such should be (and is) the exception rather than the rule.

Likewise, the New Testament and other early Christian works smack of so much outlandish fiction, whether original or borrowed from recurring ancient motifs, that interpreting its content as fiction starts to become the rule rather than the exception, even though the exceptions are most certainly there (no one here is denying that).

Moreover, it's also wise to bear in mind that much of the New Testament is just retelling Old Testament stories.

We can all see how Jesus' miracles smack of miracles performed by Elijah, Elisha, Joshua, Moses, etc. Even Jesus himself likened the three days from his death to resurrection to Jonah in the whale for three days, and likened his crucifixion to the serpent on the staff.
Matthew likened his virgin birth to the birth of Immanuel/Mahershalalhashbaz, and his coming out of Egypt to the exodus of Israel. Etc., etc.
Paul likened baptism to the crossing of the Red Sea and likened crucifixion to the law of hanging an executed criminal on a tree until sunset. Etc. and so on.

Well, the legend of Moses likewise includes transmutation of water, in particular, the very motif I mentioned earlier, the turning of the Nile waters into blood, the very substance Jesus used wine to symbolize.

So there's another layer that snow ball accumulated as it rolled down the hill of time.

ralfellis wrote:
and yet you take the discussion off onto mythological motifs and ignore the real hard evidence we have for this being a conjuring trick.


I have done no such thing. As I have more than sufficiently explained above, I don't see the dichotomy there and I don't see how my bringing up of an earlier myth constitutes ignoring Hero. I likewise didn't mention Moses or Dionysus when I brought up the Egyptian myth, yet the folks here who know me know full well how much I am aware of those legends as well and how much I use ALL of them in my personal analysis of this motif.

For the reason you brought up Hero, so also I brought up the ancient myths- as more layers of evidence to be taken into consideration when exploring this topic.

I mean, hell, the Moses legend I just mentioned above likewise tells that magicians were able to replicate that trick.

When discussing the healing miracles with Christians, I've pointed out the similarity between Jesus using spittle to restore sight and Tacitus' tale of Vespasian doing the same. Yet when I go even further back in history and mention the myth of how Atum restored sight to Horus's blinded eye with his spittle, I don't see how my mentioning of that somehow invalidates Vespasian's candidacy as a source of inspiration as well. Just as I don't see Paul likening crucifixion to the hanging of stoned criminals as invalidating Jesus likening it to the serpent on the staff.

It can be both. How often does literature take its inspiration from only one source, even when focusing on a specific topic?

Even in non-fiction, I've seen many academic works contain in one single footnote reference to around a dozen different sources just to validate one specific point.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:36 am 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
I'm not aware of the Magi performing any magic tricks. I've heard them described as Persian astrologers but not magicians. But, even if that were true what does that have to do with Jesus and your "Hero of Alexandria" and the magic trick wine jug?





Errr, Simon Magus was the most renound magician of the 1st century. He was able to allow a whip to pass through his body, he created a ghostly child made from vapours, and he flew over Rome in a chariot.

In fact, Simon's 'downfall' was via St Peter, while Simon was flying over Rome. And the reports indicate that Peters 'magic' was better than Simon's. Such reports are not so unlikely. If you read the histories of the evangelists, they seemed more like travelling conjourers and quack doctors than priests - proving their semi-divine nature via impossible tricks and healings.

In fact, that was the whole point of Hero of Alexandria's machines. His mechanical singing birds, for instance, were to amaze peopl in the Temple. As was his slot machine, for dispensing holy water.

Clearly, Simon Magus was well known as the David Copperfield of his day. And could he have done such things? Well, I have seen David Copperfield fly, and for the life of me I could not see how it was done - so one suspects that such techniques were also possible in the 1st century. Ok, they did not have wire cables in those days, but they had very thin ropes of sinew or silk that may have been suitable. Hero of Alexandria was also reputed to have made a chariot fly via the use of magnets, but a David Copperfield technique might be more likely.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:37 am 
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I didn't ask about Simon Magus.

Again, on page 540 in Figure 17.3 you show an image of a hand held water into wine pitcher and you claim: "Trick jug devised by Hero of Alexandria and used by King Jesus at his wedding at Cana."

That claim is false as the size and descriptions do not match John 2:6 and neither do any of the other images in those links. If you find one that matches the description in John 2:6 then let me know.

John 2:6 (RSV) "Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons."

John 2:6 says that each stone jar held between 20 to 30 gallons and Jesus asked them to fill up those 6 stone jars with water in verse 7. That's between 120 to 180 gallons when full. Lets also not forget that those 6 stone jars were for "Jewish rites of purification" not wine. So, it's not clear if the Jewish priests were happy or not about turning their purification waters into wine. I find it difficult to believe the Jewish priests had nothing to say.

John 2:1-11 (NIV):

Quote:
Jesus Changes Water Into Wine

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Ralf, your claim in your book that the hand held magic water into wine jug is the same one used in John 2:6 is obviously false - not even close, also, John never claims that Jesus himself ever used it. These types of claims are sloppy and egregious, Ralf. It's just not acceptable at all and it really seems like you're just making stuff up and that's why you need to keep your posts right here in your own thread. I do not want this type of crap all over this forum. These types of claims ruin your credibility and reliability. This is not the forum for such invented nonsense and nobody here has the time to correct all of your errors and false claims.

Your books make all sorts of blatantly false claims:

Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs

King Jesus, prince of Judaea and Rome

Jesus, King of Edessa

Which is it, Ralf?

Life's too short, we're interested in facts and credible evidence. You may have a good angle on the magic issue, but, making things up is extremely irresponsible and not welcome here at all. You should be posting what has been or can be verified and confirmed to make your case here. I left Christianity after being a saved, baptized Christian of 20 years because I got tired of the dishonesty and false claims so, I won't allow it here at this forum to confuse others.

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Thor

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:40 pm
Posts: 24
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

Your books make all sorts of blatantly false claims:

Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs

King Jesus, prince of Judaea and Rome

Jesus, King of Edessa

Which is it, Ralf?

Life's too short, we're interested in facts and credible evidence. You may have a good angle on the magic issue, but, making things up is extremely irresponsible and not welcome here at all.



Jesus 'turned water into wine', while innthe same era Hero of Alexandria made 12 devices for turning water into wine. If you cannot see an equivalence, I feel sorry for you, but to say this is a 'false claim' is stretching credulity.

As to the 'which is it'? - the answer is all of the above.

Jesus was of the Egyptian royal line, which is why he was called the Egyptian False Prophet.
Jesus was a king of Judaea, as the gospels acknowledge.
Jesus was a pretender to the Thronenof Rome, which is why he was crucified wearing a puple cloak of an emperor.
Jesus was the king of Edessa - because the leader of the Jewish Revolt was the king of Edessa.

So you see, all of these claims are true....


.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:37 pm 
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ralfellis wrote:
Jesus 'turned water into wine', while innthe same era Hero of Alexandria made 12 devices for turning water into wine. If you cannot see an equivalence, I feel sorry for you, but to say this is a 'false claim' is stretching credulity.

Nobody here doubts that Hero of Alexandria made assorted devices for turning water into wine and many other very interesting things, which we've discussed at this forum elsewhere, but your specific claim is obviously false from page 540 in Figure 17.3 you show an image of a hand held water into wine pitcher and you claim: "Trick jug devised by Hero of Alexandria and used by King Jesus at his wedding at Cana."

Your claim that the hand held pitcher made by Hero of Alexandria is the same pitcher used in John 2:6 is a complete divorce from reality and you need to either acknowledge that fact or give credible evidence to substantiate your claim. You're incorporating a fallacy: Correlation does not equal causation.

Marriage at Cana

ralfellis wrote:
As to the 'which is it'? - the answer is all of the above.

Jesus was of the Egyptian royal line, which is why he was called the Egyptian False Prophet.
Jesus was a king of Judaea, as the gospels acknowledge.
Jesus was a pretender to the Thronenof Rome, which is why he was crucified wearing a puple cloak of an emperor.
Jesus was the king of Edessa - because the leader of the Jewish Revolt was the king of Edessa.

So you see, all of these claims are true....

It just looks like you're tossing spaghetti on the wall hoping something, anything, will stick. You're great at making claims but, you've yet to substantiate them with credible evidence.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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