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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:13 am 
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Irish-Artist wrote:
GREAT MASSEY QUOTE ...

"I cannot join in the new masquerade and simulation of ancient mysteries manufactured in our time by Theosophists, Hermeneutists, pseudo-Esoterics, and Occultists of various orders, howsoever profound their pretensions. The very essence of all such mysteries as are got up from the refuse leavings of the past is pretence, imposition, and imposture. The only interest I take in the ancient mysteries is in ascertaining how they originated, in verifying their alleged phenomena, in knowing what they meant, on purpose to publish the knowledge as soon and as widely as possible." (vide Massey's response to the Blavatsky letter, Agnostic Journal, 1891). http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/index.htm


Wonderful quote... this will become my favourite. Thanks Irish-Artist!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:26 am 
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Gerald Massey has clearly hit a nerve with many Christians. Here's a quote from wicked pedia:
Quote:
"It has been stated that Massey, although he might have been considered a Christian Socialist, was in actuality a practicing druid, presumably a neo-druid. Not only that, Massey was elected Chosen Chief of the Most Ancient Order of Druids from 1880 through 1906. [2] This assessment contrasts strongly with the description of him quoted just below by a friend and colleague, who praised him for having thrown off the constraints of religion in favor of science and philosophy for the advancement of knowledge.

A New York publisher, D. M. Bernett, wrote of his friend in the second edition of The World's Sages, Thinkers and Reformers on page 967:
Quote:
"Gerald Massey is a warm-hearted, genial man, and as a companion and friend he has few superiors. His interests and incentives are decidedly in the direction of Science and Rationalism. He has many years been freed from the binding and blinding theological creeds and obligations. He regards priestcraft as one of the great evils which mankind for thousands of years have been compelled to endure and support; and regards it as one of the most important works that men of the present time can engage in to demolish the idols of the past dark ages; to liberate the mind from the dwarfing and blighting effect of pagan and Christian mythology and to dispense with the officious and expensive services of a designing, useless, aristocratic and wily priesthood. He most desires to see the human race advance in knowledge and truth and mental freedom, which science and philosophy imparts to the diligent investigator. He believes ignorance to be the Devil, Science the Savior of the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Massey

Christians work hard in desperation to make Gerald Massey out to be a "a practicing druid, presumably a neo-druid" however, how he became "elected Chosen Chief" is very telling as he makes clear he wasn't interested in the position:
Quote:
"A misconception about Massey's religious beliefs stems from his connection with the Most Ancient Order of Druids to which he was elected Chosen Chief, an honorary position that he held from 1880 until 1906. The position might have involved some minor administrative duties, but it required no formal membership. To Massey, at least, it was not a religion and did not involve forms of initiation, ceremonial dress or attendance at active meetings at megalithic sites; indeed, Massey did not believe in such pagan ceremony and made his interest in the Druids plain"

The quote above precedes the great Massey quote in the post above provided by Irish-Artist & re-posted by Descartes. So, the entire piece goes together like thus:
Quote:
"A misconception about Massey's religious beliefs stems from his connection with the Most Ancient Order of Druids to which he was elected Chosen Chief, an honorary position that he held from 1880 until 1906. The position might have involved some minor administrative duties, but it required no formal membership. To Massey, at least, it was not a religion and did not involve forms of initiation, ceremonial dress or attendance at active meetings at megalithic sites; indeed, Massey did not believe in such pagan ceremony and made his interest in the Druids plain...
Quote:
"I cannot join in the new masquerade and simulation of ancient mysteries manufactured in our time by Theosophists, Hermeneutists, pseudo-Esoterics, and Occultists of various orders, howsoever profound their pretensions. The very essence of all such mysteries as are got up from the refuse leavings of the past is pretence, imposition, and imposture. The only interest I take in the ancient mysteries is in ascertaining how they originated, in verifying their alleged phenomena, in knowing what they meant, on purpose to publish the knowledge as soon and as widely as possible."

- Gerald Massey
http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/index.htm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:31 pm 
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I had some one tell me once on another forum that Massey was delusional. They obviously never read any of his work and were basing their assumptions off a Wiki page.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:34 pm 
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I never met Gerald Massey.
I never saw him do a lecture.
I have never heard his voice.
But here is a first hand account by a reporter who did all three of the above.

THE NEW YORK TIMES
Sunday, November 18, 1883.

A NEW PHILOSOPHY.

"It is unfortunate that Mr. GERALD MASSEY has arrived in this country at a time when the Concord School of Philosophy is not in session. There can be no doubt that Concord is his true sphere. Anything vaguer and more unthinkable than Mr. MASSEY'S lecture on "Man's Search after His Soul" has never previously been written, and had it been delivered in Concord last Summer, the fame of the Joneses and Harrises would have been at once and for ever eclipsed.

"Being an exceptionally profound philosopher, Mr. MASSEY of course rejects the Christian religion and treats if with lofty contempt. He has a philosophic system which is infinitely better than the philosophy and morality of Revelation. Through the magnificent vagueness and unequaled unintelligibility of his lecture we find occasional glimpses of the grand system of which Mr. MASSEY is the prophet. It consists briefly in the theory that man has seven souls, and that he obtains proof of the existence of his seventh and only really valuable soul by getting drunk. The state of drunkenness is a state of "spiritual awakenment," and in this state man may interrogate nature, become as "a spirit among spirits," and indulge in various other useful and entertaining games. The divine drunkenness of which Mr. MASSEY treats is not produced exclusively by alcohol or opium. Mesmerism is a cheaper stimulant, and what is known as the trance state is the variety of drunkenness best adapted for communion with our seventh souls. A more simple and beautiful system of philosophy and religion than this has never been invented, and its invention proves Mr. MASSEY to be one of the giant philosophic intellects of the age. Think for a moment how much easier is Mr. MASSEY'S answer to the inquiry what must a man do to be saved? than is the answer set forth in the New Testament—if Mr. MASSEY will excuse the mention of that unphilosophic work in the same breath with his private and patent philosophy. Mr. MASSEY'S answer virtually is: "Get drunk and commence with your seventh soul." This is what any man with a little whisky or few pennies can do, and it ought to become immensely popular.

"It is possible that the Concord philosophers will disapprove of Mr. MASSEY'S teachings. They have been trying with vast labor and waste of words to find out the unthinkable, when, according to Mr. MASSEY, they could have attained the summit of all knowledge by the help of a few mesmeric passes or a few gills of whisky. This renders the whole Concord School of Philosophy, with its lectures and essays, a waste of time, and takes away from JONES, HARRIS, and their kind their occupation.

"It seems ungrateful to find even the slightest fault with Mr. MASSEY'S lecture, but still it could be wished that he had explained the connection between the seven souls of man and the nine lives of cats. There must be some connection, for both nine and seven are sacred numbers, and this connection may have an important bearing upon the question whether man may not have two additional and as yet undiscovered souls, the knowledge of which he can attain, not by mere drunkenness, but by positive lunacy. Mr. MASSEY should investigate this great question, and Colney Hutch would afford him the quiet and seclusion necessary for the purpose."

Colney Hutch was an asylum for the insane.

Masey was so upset by the review that he sued for libel in the amount of $5,000 quite a sum in 1898.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Yeah, I guess much learning doth make one mad.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:45 am 
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Sounds like someone is just searching for whatever trash they dig up on someone they don't like because their views don't agree with their own. It's especially easy to do when the person is no longer alive and therefore unable to defend oneself.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:05 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
By all accounts a talented poet but I think his childhood profoundly affected his world and spiritual views.


Why is it when someone does agree with the mainstream population people blame the person's childhood? Maybe he disagreed because he educated himself and found that none of it was true or even reality. Most people don't even read the Bile or whatever religious text they ascribe too. They just go with whatever they are told.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:18 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
He had his chance to present his material and it died with him. No one bought it.

LOL, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independent of Massey.

stahrwe wrote:
Logically, if one is going to invest in controversial ideas, the kind that Murdock promotes based on Massey's writings, one owes it to oneself, in my opinion at least, to investigate the source of the ideas, and to seek out the criticisms first so as not to be disappointed, or embarrassed later.

You should follow your own advice. Massey was very highly peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day. A factoid that people like you insist on omitting. Again, most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently. If you read Christ in Egypt you'd already know that.

Your comments are nothing more than character assassinations directed at Gerald Massey and indirectly at Acharya for citing Massey.

Independent of Egyptologists we also have biblical scholars:

Quote:
"...I find it undeniable that...many, many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations..."

"Osiris is doubly resurrected as his son Horus, too, and he, too, is eventually raised from the dead by Isis. He is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern. As such, he seems to represent the common Platonic astronomical symbol of the sun’s path crossing the earth’s ecliptic. Likewise, the Acts of John remembers that the real cross of Jesus is not some piece of wood, as fools think, but rather the celestial “Cross of Light.”"

"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock..."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical scholar in his review of Christ in Egypt

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
He had his chance to present his material and it died with him. No one bought it.

LOL, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independent of Massey.


The LOL evidences insecurity on your part.
Please cite specific primary references substantiating the Egyptologists who validate Massey. No secondary references, i.e. no Murdock quoting from some book or article.

stahrwe wrote:
Logically, if one is going to invest in controversial ideas, the kind that Murdock promotes based on Massey's writings, one owes it to oneself, in my opinion at least, to investigate the source of the ideas, and to seek out the criticisms first so as not to be disappointed, or embarrassed later.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
You should follow your own advice. Massey was very highly peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day. A factoid that people like you insist on omitting. Again, most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently. If you read Christ in Egypt you'd already know that.


Name them. Cite Massey's contemporaries who agree with him. Primary references only.

Much has been made about the 40 page explanation that Murdock concocted. That is a ruse. A forty page explanation is only intended to confuse the discussion in an attempt to make refutation impossible.

Will Murdock give permission to quote CiE in full in order to refute it?

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Your comments are nothing more than character assassinations directed at Gerald Massey and indirectly at Acharya for citing Massey.


I am not commenting on Massey's character. I commented on his scholarship and how it was preceived by his contemporaries.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Independent of Egyptologists we also have biblical scholars:

Quote:
"...I find it undeniable that...many, many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations..."

"Osiris is doubly resurrected as his son Horus, too, and he, too, is eventually raised from the dead by Isis. He is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern. As such, he seems to represent the common Platonic astronomical symbol of the sun’s path crossing the earth’s ecliptic. Likewise, the Acts of John remembers that the real cross of Jesus is not some piece of wood, as fools think, but rather the celestial “Cross of Light.”"

"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock..."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical scholar in his review of Christ in Egypt


I disppute your citation of Price as a Bible scholar but even if he were what does a Bible scholar know about Osiris?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:57 pm 
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First of all, stahrwe, you need to be honest for once and admit that you are a Christian - it's quite obvious. Only a Christian would deny the fact that Dr. Robert M. Price is a bible scholar. He has two Ph.D.'s, one in Systematic Theology and another Ph.D. in New Testament scholarship. (By the way, how come you only made two posts at that Christian forum? Were you banned? Not even other Christians can stand you?)

It's clear as glass you've got an irrational axe to grind with Price, Acharya, Massey and anyone else who disagrees with your delusion. The fact is you're not as smart as any of those individuals and you can't keep up with them intellectually AT ALL. That means you're not a sufficient judge of anything they write - where are your impeccable credentials that make you a proper judge of any of this scholarship? Please provide primary sources, not just the words of your Xtian fundy buddies.

You ain't that bright, kid, and you ain't qualified to judge this scholarship in the least. It's obvious you're a troll who believes THE God of the universe came to earth 2,000 years ago through the womb of a 12-year-old virgin Jewish girl, walked on water, raised the dead, transfigured on a mount, resurrected and flew off into heaven. That being said, again, you're not in any position to judge anything of an intellectual manner.

I will, however, respond to the factual material you raise - even though we've responded to it umpteen times over the past years. You haven't read it, and you won't read it this time either, before coming back with the same discredited objections from people who believe in ridiculous fairytales. That's why you're a troll.

Most Egyptologists today are very specialized and have not studied Massey's work in depth. They're not qualified to pass judgment on it either - and if they aren't, you sure aren't.

None of us is going to do your research for you, but Acharya/Murdock has already provided the proof where many of Massey's contentions have been backed up by Egyptologists - because HE USED THEIR WORK. What part of that did you not understand? The proof from primary sources and credentialed Egyptologists is outlined in her nearly 600-page book Christ in Egypt - that's one of the main reasons for the book in the first place. The fact that you have to ask these questions shows you haven't read it, so stop pretending you know all about it. You don't.

stahrwe wrote:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
You should follow your own advice. Massey was very highly peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day. A factoid that people like you insist on omitting. Again, most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently. If you read Christ in Egypt you'd already know that.

Name them. Cite Massey's contemporaries who agree with him. Primary references only.

The proof about Massey's scholarship is in the article that's the subject of this thread - but you haven't even read it before you came in here with your personal attacks and snide comments. That's all you have, isn't it? Some person ended up in an insane asylum, therefore Gerald Massey is wrong. Well, how many Christians are in insane asylums, stahrwe? I guess that proves Christ was wrong or didn't exist. Your first post here was completely ridiculous and everything you've posted since then validates that you didn't even read the article that's the subject of this thread. Your posts merely show your own lack of integrity and honesty - do you ever look in the mirror for an honest assessment, or is your blind belief enough to make you believe you're all knowing, brilliant and infallible?

Here's the link to the article about Massey that shows exactly WHO peer-reviewed his work - the names are there. There's more in Christ in Egypt, but you won't read that either - I don't believe you CAN read Acharya's works because they are WAY over your head in intelligence and scholarship.

What part of the following are you unable to understand?

Quote:
In these intensive and meticulous efforts, Massey studied the work of the best minds of the time--all towering figures within Egyptology, especially during Massey’s era, when most of them were alive and some were familiar with his work. These celebrated authorities in Egyptology whose works Massey studied and utilized included: Sir Dr. Budge; Dr. Brugsch-Bey; Jean-François Champollion; Dr. Eugene Lefébure; Dr. Karl Richard Lepsius; Sir Dr. Gaston Maspero; Dr. Henri Edouard Naville; Sir Dr. William Flinders Petrie; Dr. Thomas Joseph Pettigrew; Sir Renouf; le vicomte de Rougé; Dr. Samuel Sharpe; and Sir Dr. John Gardner Wilkinson, among many other scholars in a wide variety of fields. As other examples, Massey also used the work of Sir Dr. J. Norman Lockyer, the physicist and royal English astronomer who was friends with Budge and knew Egypt well, along with that of Dr. Charles Piazzi Smyth, royal Scottish astronomer and professor of Astronomy at the University of Edinburgh. Massey further studied the work of Reverend Dr. Archibald Sayce, professor of Comparative Philology at Oxford, as well as that of famous mythologist Sir Dr. James George Frazer, although he did not agree with their conclusions. He likewise cited the work of Francois Lenormant, professor of Archaeology at the National Library of France, as well as that of comparative theologian and Oxford professor Dr. Max Müller, philosopher and Jesus biographer Dr. Ernest Renan, and Christian monuments expert Rev. Dr. John Patterson Lundy.

Gerald Massey was very influenced by the work of Dr. Samuel Birch (1813-1885), archaeologist, Egyptologist and Keeper of the Department of Oriental Antiquities in the British Museum. The creator of the first alphabetically arranged Egyptian dictionary, Dr. Birch also was the founder of the prestigious and influential Society of Biblical Archaeology, to which belonged many other notables in the fields of archaeology, Assyriology, Egyptology and so on. Much of this eye-opening work on comparative religion, in fact, emanated from this august body of erudite and credentialed individuals. Birch held many other titles and honors, including from Cambridge and Oxford Universities. His numerous influential works on Egypt, including the first English translation of the Book of the Dead, were cited for decades in scholarly publications.

In the "Introduction" to his book The Natural Genesis, Gerald Massey writes:

The German Egyptologist, Herr Pietschmann…reviewed the "Book of the Beginnings"... The writer has taken the precaution all through of getting his fundamental facts in Egyptology verified by one of the foremost of living authorities, Dr. Samuel Birch, to whom he returns his heartiest acknowledgements. (Massey, NG, viii)

Dr. Richard Pietschmann was a professor of Egyptology at the University of Göttingen, an impressive "peer reviewer" for one of Massey's early works on Egypt. By verifying his "fundamental facts" with Birch, Massey appears to be saying that his work was also reviewed by Birch, with whom he enjoyed a personal relationship expressed in his letters. Indeed, following this statement in The Natural Genesis, in his "Retort" to various attacks he endured, Massey remarked:

As I also say in my preface [to The Natural Genesis] I took the precaution of consulting Dr. Samuel Birch for many years after he had offered, in his own words, to "keep me straight" as to my facts, obtainable from Egyptian records. He answered my questions, gave me his advice, discussed variant renderings, read whatever proofs I sent him, and corrected me where he saw I was wrong. (Massey, Gerald Massey's Lectures, 251)

It is evident from these remarks that a significant portion of Massey's work was "peer reviewed" by the eminent Dr. Samuel Birch, a remarkable development that should be factored into the assessment of Massey’s work. With such developments, it becomes evident that it is not the quality of Massey’s work at issue, since it is obviously sound, but that his conclusions as to the nonhistoricity and unoriginality of the Christian religion do not sit well with his detractors. This latter fact is critically important to bear in mind when studying Massey's works, especially since he largely discovered and developed parallels between the Egyptian and Christian religions, crucial data that may have otherwise been left to lie fallow based on occupational considerations by the vested-interested professionals upon whose work Massey relied.

Massey was likewise personally friendly with Sir Lockyer (1836-1920), as well as Dr. Birch's protégé Assyriologist Dr. Theophilus Goldridge Pinches (1856-1934). Naturally, among these various scholars of his era, Massey also had his critics, including, apparently, the devout Roman Catholic Renouf, who evidently was a mysterious anonymous Egyptologist who spewed calumny and vitriol at Massey, essentially calling him a lunatic. That Massey was so well known as to draw such attention and ire speaks to his efficacy, rather than his incompetence. As he himself said in his retort to such vituperation, "Such damnation is dirt cheap! Also, the time has passed for denunciation to be mistaken for disproof." (Massey, GML, 250) In his "Retort," Massey also made the following observation, which readers of this present work might wish to keep in mind as well: "I had already warned my readers that they must expect little help from those Egyptologists and Assyriologists who are bibliolaters first and scholars afterwards. Bibliolatry puts out the eye of scholarship or causes confirmed strabismus," the latter term referring to a vision disorder. "Bibliolatry," of course, refers to "Bible worship," while "bibliolaters" are "Bible worshippers."

In his scholarly works on Egypt, in addition to the available Egyptian sources, Gerald Massey utilized numerous other ancient texts, including Judeo-Christian writings such as the Bible, as well as those of early Church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Epiphanius and Jerome. Massey also cited non-Christian, Jewish and Gnostic writers such as Herodotus, Philo, Pausanias and Valentinus, along with writings such as the Talmud and the Hindu Puranas.

Acharya provides all the citations in her book - and I'm not going to repeat them here at the demand of a Christian troll who mindlessly repeats the same lies over and over again. You'll have to get off your lazy Xtian troll ass and do some research yourself. But, again, you won't, because you too afraid of what you'll find.

stahrwe wrote:
Much has been made about the 40 page explanation that Murdock concocted. That is a ruse. A forty page explanation is only intended to confuse the discussion in an attempt to make refutation impossible.

Will Murdock give permission to quote CiE in full in order to refute it?

Which "40-page explanation" are you talking about? You can't even express yourself properly, so what makes you believe you're smarter than any of the people here you're criticizing? Are you talking about the chapter on Horus being crucified? I doubt you'll even understand the concept. But here we go again - the point is not that there are any ancient texts that tell the story of Horus being thrown to the ground and nailed to a cross. The point is that Horus, like so many other gods, including Osiris, was shown in CRUCIFORM, with his arms outstretched, just like Christ. That means the god on a cross or in cross-shape is a pre-Christian MYTH that was adopted into Christianity. As you'll read in the article linked about Horus "crucified," even the early Church fathers talked about this MYTHICAL theme. CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES MADE THIS COMPARISON BETWEEN CHRIST ON THE CROSS AND THE ROMAN GODS ON CROSSES.

Oh, I forgot - you won't actually read the article linked above, before you come back with the same obnoxious personal attacks and ignorant comments. I suppose you'll be attacking Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Minucius Felix now for making this comparison? I won't hold my breath for your endless ranting against these CHRISTIANS for doing that. I'm sure you'll just come back with some concocted ruse. (Christianity is a concocted ruse, by the way.)

We've had this discussion many times over and there are a lot of threads on the subject on this very forum.

Cruciforms/Gods on Crosses

That's all there is to it, but someone like you who blindly believes a supernatural fairytale with no evidence just won't get it - please provide us with the primary sources that prove the ridiculous and supernatural claims of Christianity? We want the original gospels, please, with a certificate from God saying they were written by the people who they're claimed to be.

I bet if you had been brainwashed by stories about Hercules since you were a child, you'd be in here arguing how Hercules is the real Son of God, without any proof whatsoever.

And since when has permission been needed by Christian trolls to refute anything? They're just so conceited and arrogant - their blind belief in Jewish fairytales makes them think they're smarter than everyone else - they don't need no stinkin' permission to quote others and spread lies about them.

By the way, in order for you to quote something and refute it, you'll actually have to READ it. Do you think you can handle that? Otherwise, attacking people's work you've never read is known as intellectual dishonesty. If you can prove to us that you've actually read the material in question, not only will we be shocked - since your other posts show that you have NOT read anything relevant AT ALL before pretending to be an expert on the subject - but you might stand a chance of staying on this forum. If not, you can take your trolling elsewhere.

stahrwe wrote:
I am not commenting on Massey's character. I commented on his scholarship and how it was preceived by his contemporaries.

You did no such thing. You quoted a malcontent - probably a Christian - who, like you, probably hadn't even read his work. There was NO factual material in the mindless personal spew you posted here - that's a typical Christian troll tactic. Where are the facts in your post? Not one - just a bunch of personal attacks.

You remind me of the apologists addressed by Ken Humphreys in his article here:

Quote:
Christian Apologetics - Fundamentally Flawed

Image

Logical fallacies and semantic trickery are the very essence of Christian apologetics, exploiting a general ignorance of science and responding to the desire for quick-fix salvation and something easy on the brain cells.

Deceiving the Unsophisticated by Trickery

The supposed 'evidence' of Jesus's existence can fill many pages. The $multi-billion industry of religion quite predictably has its lionized defenders of the Faith. Two favourites of the Born Again are pastor Lee Strobel –The Case For Christ – and minister Josh McDowell – Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Neither pretends to a scientific impartiality. Beyond a self-claimed 'hard-nosed objectivity' they make an avowedly partisan case for their evangelist cause. But for all the fulsome praise heaped upon contemporary Apologists by a grateful Christ Incorporated the evidence of their case collapses under scrutiny. The sophistry and flimflam deceive only the gullible and the uninformed – but, then, that is the essence of religion.

The Apologists have no store of unknown Jesus artifacts, no cache of Jesus's secret memoirs– though they do have shrewd allies in the relic-fabrication industry, so this may change! Rather, their circus tent is filled with nothing more substantial than subterfuge and suspect logic. What holds it all together is that universal super glue – Faith.


I am sick and tired of trolls and have absolutely no patience for them anymore, stahrwe. Go find a different place to post your trash. My spidey senses knew this was going to be the end result of you coming here after you got banned for all your trash over at Booktalk. You never seem to learn.

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:03 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
Mriana wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
By all accounts a talented poet but I think his childhood profoundly affected his world and spiritual views.


Why is it when someone does agree with the mainstream population people blame the person's childhood? Maybe he disagreed because he educated himself and found that none of it was true or even reality. Most people don't even read the Bile or whatever religious text they ascribe too. They just go with whatever they are told.


Your comment is a bit disconnected. Not sure what it has to do with my post. Massey was raised in a very religious home but in wrenching poverty. I suspect he felt that his mother's devotion should have provided economic relief for the family and when it didn't he abandoned his faith, turned his back on God and began a search to discredit what he had been taught. How much of this was conscious on his part I can't say.


No, it's not disconnected from you comment. You blamed his views on his childhood, which is typical of those who believe. They always want to blame it on something from their childhood, like some bad incident. I'm sure, like many others, Massey's views have nothing to do that and is purely due to his education and what he learned.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:49 pm 
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The comment: “Yeah, I guess much learning doth make one mad.” Was made above. While it might seem a clever ploy to quote the Bible at this point the context of the quote alters the perception. In the Book of Acts, Paul is before Festus and Agrippa making an appeal. Festus makes a comment that Paul has had so much education that he sounds mad, but Agrippa, is of a different opinion. Paul nearly convinces him of the truth of what he has been saying. It seems clear that the problem Festus has isn't that Paul is crazy it is that Paul is sincere i.e. he believes what he is saying. On the other hand, Festus has a view which is very much different than Paul's and can't understand how Paul can believe what he say he does.

I am very familiar with Robert Price. Of all people Christians would deny that Price is a Bible scholar due to his association with the Jesus Seminar.

So Massey wasn’t a Druid but he was.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
It's clear as glass you've got an irrational axe to grind with Price, Acharya, Massey and anyone else who disagrees with your delusion. The fact is you're not as smart as any of those individuals and you can't keep up with them intellectually AT ALL. That means you're not a sufficient judge of anything they write - where are your impeccable credentials that make you a proper judge of any of this scholarship? Please provide primary sources, not just the words of your Xtian fundy buddies.


Here is a partial list of books from my personal library which address the issues I have mentioned. A number of these authors are participants in the interdisciplinary, multinational militant apologetics group I am a member of:

Who Chose the Gospels?: Probing the Great Gospel Conspiracy, C.E. Hill

Israelite Religions: An Archaeological and Biblical Survey
Richard S. Hess

The Old Testament : An Introduction
Otto Eissfeldt

What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: What Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel
William G. Dever

Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?
William G. Dever

Hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the Bible
Yigael Yadin

Cybele, Attis and Related Cults: Essays in Memory of M.J. Vermaseren (Religions in the Graeco-Roman World)
Eugene N. Lane

The Classics of Judaism: A Textbook and Reader
Jacob Neusner

Phenomenon of the New Testament (Study in Bible Theology)
Moule

The Life of James Clerk Maxwell: With Selections from His Correspondence and Occasional Writings
Lewis Campbell; William Garnett

Unmasking the Pagan Christ: An Evangelical Response to the Cosmic Christ Idea
Stanley E. Porter, Stephen J. Bedard

Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels
Craig A. Evans

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels As Eyewitness Testimony
Richard Bauckham

Osiris; the Egyptian religion of resurrection
E. A. Wallis Budge

Saturnalia, Volume I: Books 1-2
(Loeb Classical Library)
Macrobius, Robert A. Kaster

The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success
Rodney Stark

For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery
Rodney Stark

The Documentary Hypothesis Eight Lectures ENGLISH
Umberto Cassuto

The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution
James Hannam

The Road of Science and the Ways to God
Stanley L. Jaki

BTW: Xtian is an acceptable reference to Christians dating back to the first century and ‘fundy’ is a term we embrace.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

You ain't that bright, kid, and you ain't qualified to judge this scholarship in the least. It's obvious you're a troll who believes THE God of the universe came to earth 2,000 years ago through the womb of a 12-year-old virgin Jewish girl, walked on water, raised the dead, transfigured on a mount, resurrected and flew off into heaven. That being said, again, you're not in any position to judge anything of an intellectual manner.


Perhaps not but J. C. (odd coincidence) Maxwell was that bright as are many of my author friends as we don’t hide from or avoid debates.


Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
I will, however, respond to the factual material you raise - even though we've responded to it umpteen times over the past years. You haven't read it, and you won't read it this time either, before coming back with the same discredited objections from people who believe in ridiculous fairytales. That's why you're a troll.

Most Egyptologists today are very specialized and have not studied Massey's work in depth. They're not qualified to pass judgment on it either - and if they aren't, you sure aren't.


But you said above that most Egyptologist support Massey’s work. Which is it?

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
None of us is going to do your research for you, but Acharya/Murdock has already provided the proof where many of Massey's contentions have been backed up by Egyptologists - because HE USED THEIR WORK. What part of that did you not understand? The proof from primary sources and credentialed Egyptologists is outlined in her nearly 600-page book Christ in Egypt - that's one of the main reasons for the book in the first place. The fact that you have to ask these questions shows you haven't read it, so stop pretending you know all about it. You don't.


I am afraid you are a bit confused. If Massey used their work, they could not be cited to have substantiated Massey. It’s kind of like saying that because of heredity my father looks like me, that is incorrect, I look like my father. As for doing research, we have and support for Massey and Murdock is lacking. Further, Massey was not a rationalist as you understand and use the word. He was a spiritualist. He supported clairvoyance, mesmerism, and the use of perception altering substances.

I wonder just how much you or Murdock for that matter know about Massey. He had his chance to press the case for his theories while he was alive and he failed. Just because they have been repackaged doesn't mean they are any more compelling now. Further, I suspect that Murdock knows little of the man she chose to champion. We had decided not to bother with him, at least not for awhile, but your approach Freethinkaluva22 resulted in a new round of discussions and we will be moving up our feature on Massey once we launch. For now just sit back, relax and prepared to be surprised. Hint: my new avatar is a clue.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:35 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
I am very familiar with Robert Price. Of all people Christians would deny that Price is a Bible scholar due to his association with the Jesus Seminar.

Obviously, you are not or you would've already known that Dr. Price has two Ph.D's in biblical scholarship. Denial of him being a biblical scholar simply because he was a member of the Jesus Seminar is the fallacy of 'guilt by association' as well as a demonstration of biases and prejudice. It has no merit. Dr. Price is a biblical scholar and there is nothing you can do about that fact.

stahrwe wrote:
So Massey wasn’t a Druid but he was.

Not really, that's just what people say who don't know what they're talking about and who like to spread that false information. You conveniently omit Massey's own commentary on the subject:
Quote:
"A misconception about Massey's religious beliefs stems from his connection with the Most Ancient Order of Druids to which he was elected Chosen Chief, an honorary position that he held from 1880 until 1906. The position might have involved some minor administrative duties, but it required no formal membership. To Massey, at least, it was not a religion and did not involve forms of initiation, ceremonial dress or attendance at active meetings at megalithic sites; indeed, Massey did not believe in such pagan ceremony and made his interest in the Druids plain...

"I cannot join in the new masquerade and simulation of ancient mysteries manufactured in our time by Theosophists, Hermeneutists, pseudo-Esoterics, and Occultists of various orders, howsoever profound their pretensions. The very essence of all such mysteries as are got up from the refuse leavings of the past is pretence, imposition, and imposture. The only interest I take in the ancient mysteries is in ascertaining how they originated, in verifying their alleged phenomena, in knowing what they meant, on purpose to publish the knowledge as soon and as widely as possible."

- Gerald Massey

If you read on you'll learn that Massey didn't want to be Chief. He wasn't interested they simply selected him even though he was NOT running for the position.

stahrwe wrote:
Here is a partial list of books from my personal library which address the issues I have mentioned. A number of these authors are participants in the interdisciplinary, multinational militant apologetics group I am a member of:

So what? Who cares about your personal library?

stahrwe wrote:
But you said above that most Egyptologist support Massey’s work. Which is it?

You're clearly confused probably because you STILL haven't read the articles or books you're criticizing. That, or you're just being a smart-aleck .. even a kid can understand it.

Again, Massey's work was quite highly peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day. He used a lot of their work too - such as their translations of Egyptian texts, hieroglyphs etc. Got it? Modern Egyptologists who've never even heard of Massey's work have independently confirmed his work with their own. Their views and conclusions are in agreement with Massey on many of the most significant issues and you can read all about that in Christ in Egypt. Get it?

If you seriously thought that I was claiming that Gerald Massey was citing works of modern day Egyptologists you either have a room temperature IQ or you're just being a smart-ass again. I don't have time for this stupid shit, stahrwe. I've had enough of you. Last warning.

stahrwe wrote:
He had his chance to press the case for his theories while he was alive and he failed. Just because they have been repackaged doesn't mean they are any more compelling now.

You're just repeating the same trash and blatant lies that have already been addressed repeatedly.

stahrwe wrote:
We had decided not to bother with him, at least not for awhile, but your approach Freethinkaluva22 resulted in a new round of discussions and we will be moving up our feature on Massey once we launch. For now just sit back, relax and prepared to be surprised. Hint: my new avatar is a clue.

Care factor equals zero. Your work on these subjects so far could easily be outdone by a 6th grader. You are sloppy and make constant egregious errors due not only to your severe lack of knowledge, but also, your prejudice and biases, all of which are as transparent as glass. You were constantly proven wrong at Booktalk but, like any good liar for the Lord, you simply refused to ever make any necessary adjustments, same as any other fundamentalist. Why would we expect anything different all the sudden?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Obviously, you are not or you would've already known that Dr. Price has two Ph.D's in biblical scholarship. Denial of him being a biblical scholar simply because he was a member of the Jesus Seminar is the fallacy of 'guilt by association' as well as a demonstration of biases and prejudice. It has no merit. Dr. Price is a biblical scholar and there is nothing you can do about that fact.


I don't care what letters Price has after his name, the group he participates in votes to remove material sections of the Bible to such an extent the the resulting document is not the Bible. Therefore, he is not a Bible scholar.

As for the Druid issue, I don't care if Massey ran for it or not, or if he practiced the rituals, for him, or you to maintain that he wasn't a Druid when he was the head guy, symbolic or not, is just plain silly.

Regarding my list of library books, you said, who cares? The list was in response to your request for my primary souces of information opposing the positions endemic to FTN.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
If you seriously thought that I was claiming that Gerald Massey was citing works of modern day Egyptologists you either have a room temperature IQ or you're just being a smart-ass again. I don't have time for this stupid shit, stahrwe. I've had enough of you. Last warning.


I have yet to see any specific quote from a GM contemporary Egyptologist who specifically states that Massey is right. Massey had years of lectures he made promoting his ideas but they were never accepted. Your manufactured outrage and my low IQ notwithstanding; Just show me a quote.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:34 pm 
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stahrwe wrote:
I don't care what letters Price has after his name, the group he participates in votes to remove material sections of the Bible to such an extent the the resulting document is not the Bible. Therefore, he is not a Bible scholar.

Your opinion is irrelevant, and I don't care what you have to say on the subject, frankly. Dr. Robert Price is a Bible scholar. You, however, are not. You only further demonstrate your own biases by declaring he is not a biblical scholar simply because Dr. Price does not agree with you.

stahrwe wrote:
As for the Druid issue, I don't care if Massey ran for it or not, or if he practiced the rituals, for him, or you to maintain that he wasn't a Druid when he was the head guy, symbolic or not, is just plain silly.

What is "silly" is your belief that anyone cares about your uninformed and ignorant opinions of Massey or anyone else. Regardless of what Massey did in his personal life, what he has written about Egyptian religion and mythology was peer-reviewed by some of the best scholars of the day. Your distraction fallacies will never change that fact, so stop wasting our time here. You yourself belong to a simpleminded cult that believes the God of the cosmos came to earth through the womb of a 12-year-old Jewish virgin girl - nothing Massey could have believed in could be as ridiculous as that. So, stop throwing stones when you live in a glass house.

Quote:
"A misconception about Massey's religious beliefs stems from his connection with the Most Ancient Order of Druids to which he was elected Chosen Chief, an honorary position that he held from 1880 until 1906. The position might have involved some minor administrative duties, but it required no formal membership. To Massey, at least, it was not a religion and did not involve forms of initiation, ceremonial dress or attendance at active meetings at megalithic sites; indeed, Massey did not believe in such pagan ceremony and made his interest in the Druids plain...

"I cannot join in the new masquerade and simulation of ancient mysteries manufactured in our time by Theosophists, Hermeneutists, pseudo-Esoterics, and Occultists of various orders, howsoever profound their pretensions. The very essence of all such mysteries as are got up from the refuse leavings of the past is pretence, imposition, and imposture. The only interest I take in the ancient mysteries is in ascertaining how they originated, in verifying their alleged phenomena, in knowing what they meant, on purpose to publish the knowledge as soon and as widely as possible."

- Gerald Massey

stahrwe wrote:
I have yet to see any specific quote from a GM contemporary Egyptologist who specifically states that Massey is right. Massey had years of lectures he made promoting his ideas but they were never accepted. Your manufactured outrage and my low IQ notwithstanding; Just show me a quote.

What you continually fail to understand, stahrwe, is that Massey had MANY ideas, the bulk of which came from Egyptologists themselves, whose works he cited. You still haven't studied Massey or his sources, so please don't pretend to have the moral upper hand here. When you have proved that you know anything about Massey's work besides idiotic gossip, then we might be interested in something you have to say.

What part of the following did you not understand? Since you yourself have tried to indict Massey by saying that his work was well known at the time, do you think that he could have lied about the following, without being caught by obsessive critics like yourself?

Quote:
In the "Introduction" to his book The Natural Genesis, Gerald Massey writes:

Quote:
The German Egyptologist, Herr Pietschmann…reviewed the "Book of the Beginnings"... The writer has taken the precaution all through of getting his fundamental facts in Egyptology verified by one of the foremost of living authorities, Dr. Samuel Birch, to whom he returns his heartiest acknowledgements. (Massey, NG, viii)

Dr. Richard Pietschmann was a professor of Egyptology at the University of Göttingen, an impressive "peer reviewer" for one of Massey's early works on Egypt. By verifying his "fundamental facts" with Birch, Massey appears to be saying that his work was also reviewed by Birch, with whom he enjoyed a personal relationship expressed in his letters. Indeed, following this statement in The Natural Genesis, in his "Retort" to various attacks he endured, Massey remarked:
Quote:
As I also say in my preface [to The Natural Genesis] I took the precaution of consulting Dr. Samuel Birch for many years after he had offered, in his own words, to "keep me straight" as to my facts, obtainable from Egyptian records. He answered my questions, gave me his advice, discussed variant renderings, read whatever proofs I sent him, and corrected me where he saw I was wrong. (Massey, Gerald Massey's Lectures, 251)

It is evident from these remarks that a significant portion of Massey's work was "peer reviewed" by the eminent Dr. Samuel Birch, a remarkable development that should be factored into the assessment of Massey’s work.

The full quote may be found on page two of this very thread in case you forgot. It's also in the article, Who Is Gerald Massey?, which is the subject of this thread you STILL have not read. It's also just a short excerpt from the book, Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, which you also have never read.

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