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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:38 am 
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Hi there
I come from a Catholic upbringing and therefore have no problems with the message you are promoting -for it it just enriches a wonderful message.
What has me intrigued however is the concept that the Christ died for 3 days and then rises from the dead is indeed the static position of the sun on the 22nd of dec and sits there for 3 days before rising again
-where does the knowledge come from ?
The three stars are close to sirius bu do not line up with where the sun res on the 22nd Dec -can you please explain because I a little confused
just seeking clarification -like many others I have a deep interest in this knowledge


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:17 am 
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deanei wrote:
The three stars are close to sirius bu do not line up with where thesun res on the 22ndDec -can you please explain


The three stars do not line up at sunrise, but the night before (24 December), giving people and worshippers the direction where the next morning the sun will rise again.

You can se this with any astronomical simulation software. The following are two shots of the simulated sky: one of the night of 24 and the other the morning of 25, in Jerusalem in the year 1 AD (the year when Jesus was supposedly born). Both the night of the 24 december and the sunrise of 25 december are shown from the same position and looking at the same azimuth.

Image

High resolution version (click to enlarge):

Image

In the Age of Aries (2000 BC), at the time of Horus, it was the same:

This is the result for 2000 BC (when the winter solstice was january 6):

Image

Hires version:

Image

Quote:
What has me intrigued however is the concept that the Christ died for 3 days and then rises from the dead is indeed the static position of the sun on the 22nd of dec and sits there for 3 days before rising again
-where does thi knowledge come from ?


This too can be seen with any astronomical software. It was the most renowed characteristic of the sun path.

Matthew 12:40 - "For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The word "solstice" derive from the days of sun standstill at the Winter Solstice (Christmas). Its root is from latin: sōlstitium, equiv. to sōl, sun, + -stitium, from latin: sistere, to make stand.

Here are the calculations made with SNPro, both in Jerusalem and Rome, that shows the standstill of the sun at the bottom is really 3 days (note: the last 3 digits were too small to be noticed with the naked eye, so the sun appears to completely stop moving in the sky):


Azimuth of the Sun at Sunrise:

Jerusalem 1 AD
15 December - 117° 19.938'
16 December - 117° 24.218'
17 December - 117° 27.837'
18 December - 117° 30.927'
19 December - 117° 33.390'
20 December - 117° 35.388'
21 December - 117° 36.763'
22 December - 117° 37.524'
23 December - 117° 37.695'
24 December - 117° 37.337'

25 December - 117° 36.381'
26 December - 117° 34.826'
27 December - 117° 32.676'
28 December - 117° 29.997'

Rome 1 AD
15 December - 121° 26.891'
16 December - 121° 31.950'
17 December - 121° 36.252'
18 December - 121° 39.870'
19 December - 121° 42.727'
20 December - 121° 44.997'
21 December - 121° 46.585'
22 December - 121° 47.415'
23 December - 121° 47.564'
24 December - 121° 47.122'

25 December - 121° 45.909'
26 December - 121° 44.024'
27 December - 121° 41.380'
28 December - 121° 38.139'

In the Age of Aries:

Jerusalem 2000 BC
1 January - 117° 48.932'
2 January - 117° 51.190'
3 January - 117° 52.859'
4 January - 117° 54.004'
5 January - 117° 54.554'
6 January - 117° 54.577'

7 January - 117° 53.940'
8 January - 117° 52.776'
9 January - 117° 51.097'
10 January - 117° 48.762'
11 January - 117° 45.896'


Calculations made with Starry Night Pro Plus v.6.2.3


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Thanks for that info again Descartes. It really comes in handy when people ask that question. :wink:

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Hi Descartes
I am truly grateful for you guidance and clarification
the richness of our past heritage is truly amazing and wonderful
Is there any way you could email me what you have shown so I can send onto others
Oh and just one other point - can you tell me how the "crux" star formation fits into this -is it also in the vicinity at winter solstice time?
my email address is purtells@tpg.com.au
thanks again
Mike Purtell


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:34 am 
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deanei wrote:
Hi Descartes
Is there any way you could email me what you have shown so I can send onto others


Just email them a link to this thread. Copy and paste the current url address in your browser.

Quote:
Oh and just one other point - can you tell me how the "crux" star formation fits into this -is it also in the vicinity at winter solstice time?


In Jerusalem during the winter solstice the crux constellation (also known as southern cross) appears in the south every morning at sunrise. In those days the sun is at his maximum elongation toward the south in the horizon. Because it appears that the sun at winter solstice goes progressively toward the crux and then stand there for three days at the same azimuth, you can say it is cruci-fixed, or fixed toward the southern cross, but it never really reaches the south where the crux is. It's just that the crux in those days is a celestial reference point for the south, and the winter solstice is the moment of the year when the sun rises at the southern point in the horizon.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:26 pm 
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That was a nice explanation Descartes. A lot of apologists have tried to take issue with the reference to the southern cross in the Zeitgeist movie. It would be cool if you did an illustrated thread based on the sun and the southern cross during the winter solstice.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:02 am 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
It would be cool if you did an illustrated thread based on the sun and the southern cross during the winter solstice.


Ok, in the next few days I'll try to capture a video sequence of all sunrises during the year with Starry Night Pro and some screen capture software, and then put it on youtube. I never made a video before so please be patient. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:05 pm 
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That would be awesome! youtube needs a video like this to address the so-called debunkers. They've been shafted for the most part with the "Isis (Aset) - Meri" video, shafted with the Orion - Sirius alingment videos, and they'll be shafted when the southern cross video arrives as well. I find it odd that so many people were quick to jump to denial when the information is all there for the taking.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:11 am 
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Please correct me if I'm wrong. And I hope that I am.

The belt of Orion and Sirius may point toward the sunrise on december 25th but they appear to be have already set on the Western horizon by the time the sun comes up. They also do not form a vertical line with the sun to the point on the eastern horizon where it rises (This was the claim made in "Pharmacratic Inquisition").

Also if the line points to the sun on the Winter Solstice then it will point to it all of the time. Why would it be more relevant then. The solstice would be discernible by the apparently fixed rising and setting points of the sun.

Stellar and solar mythology might be the origin of the myths that were cannibalized to create christianity. But Jesus' birthday isn't mentioned in the NT and he was visited by shepards or magi depending on the account but not by 3 kings. The comparisons to Heru, Esus, etc. are worth considering but the astrotheology seems to have been lost by the time these characters morphed into jesus.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:28 am 
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Quote:
"The belt of Orion and Sirius may point toward the sunrise on december 25th but they appear to be have already set on the Western horizon by the time the sun comes up."

That's why they say that the 3 Kings and Sirius "POINT to the place of the sunrise." It's absurd to think that the stars are still easily visible as the sun rises. That part probably wasn't explained further because it seemed so obvious.

Quote:
"They also do not form a vertical line with the sun to the point on the eastern horizon where it rises"

It's not a perfect straight line but it's close.

Quote:
"Also if the line points to the sun on the Winter Solstice then it will point to it all of the time. Why would it be more relevant then. "

It's the winter solstice itself that makes it different than any other time of the year as its the "darkest day of the year" when the sun remains still for 3 days before it changes direction.

Quote:
"Jesus' birthday isn't mentioned in the NT"

You're right it's not yet, billions of Christians celebrate his birthday on the same day that the ancients celebrated the birth, re-birth or resurrection of the sun god. Christians could've selected from 364 other days to be his BD but they chose the one day that was already well known to be the birth of the sun god.

Early church fathers made commentary such as:

"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"
- Cyprian, source: Catholic Enc.: Christmas

Quote:
"he was visited by shepards or magi depending on the account but not by 3 kings"

The definition of "magi" is Persian astrologers - another astrotheological clue. And keep in mind that the 3 Kings are STARS not real people. This is the difficulty so many people have is they're in such a habit of taking everything so literally that the mythological concept escapes them. Look at any astronomy program for the constellations and they will show you pictures of animals and humans in the stars - they're all mythical. There couldn't be a greater clue that the ancients created myths about the stars.

So the astrotheological roots weren't lost on Jesus the creators of Christianity simply worked much harder to historicize him to make him appear more historical than before.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:34 pm 
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It doesn't form anything close to a straight line but the effect is clear. My point was that "Pharm inq" made the claim that the stars lined up with the sun perpendicularly to the horizon. That is clearly not the case. They point to the dec 25th sunrise but appear to do so from the opposite horizon. And in their passage through the night sky they point to a broad area of the horizon.

My objective is to distill down the case to something that attacks only the basis of xtian theology not the traditions that it inherited. I think that taking down xiandom will require taking down the bible and it's claims. If astrotheology can help, as in the analogy of the winter solstice, then great. The winter solstice is the basis for the resurrection myth not the xmas story and xtians need to be shown this. But there's not much point to refuting claims that the bible never makes in the hope of convincing xtians.

On the other hand open minded people can be shown that xtianity evolved from an earlier tradtion that may have involved 3 kings so keep the info coming but realize it has no use in waking up xtians.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Quote:
It doesn't form anything close to a straight line but the effect is clear. My point was that "Pharm inq" made the claim that the stars lined up with the sun perpendicularly to the horizon.


I misunderstood you - I thought you meant a fairly straight line from the 3 Kings, Sirius pointing to the place of the sunrise.

Quote:
My objective is.....


I like the way you think bustr. Keep sharing your thoughts when you can and maybe we can work something out.

Quote:
but realize it has no use in waking up xtians

It worked for me I was a 20 year saved, baptized, Evangelical Christian.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:26 pm 
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Bustr, the only problem here is that you missed the point. In the pharmacratic inquisition they specifically tell you that during the winter solstice Orion's belt is seen rising on the horizon right at dark. It's the only time of the year that you see it that way. A month later Orion is up above the horizon when it gets dark enough to see it. I just spent this last season watching the stars for myself.

Jan also states that Orion and and Sirius form an offset line towards the south eastern horizon, marking the place where the sun will rise the next morning. The ancients weren't interested in a straight line or anything of the sort. They just noticed that during that time of the year, when the sun is at it's furthest point south, the stars of Orion and Sirius rise in the general region - east / south east - where the sun will rise. This made for a useful reference in myth making. It doesn't have anything to do with Orion and Sirius during the actual sunrise because they set on the western horizon before sun rise. It has specifically to do with Orion and Sirius at sundown begining the process of stars on the night of Christmas Eve because it's right then that Orion starts rising marking where the sun will rise the next morning, and when the sun rises in the east they've just set in the west, just as they rose in the east right after the sun set in the west. That's the main point. That's what the ancients were taking note of in the mythos. After that time the sun starts moving northward again, away from this winter solstice alignment. What happens is that night falls, Orion rises, Sirius rises, then after midnight "Virgo" begins to rise, then serpens comes up under the feet of Virgo followed by the sun rising. This is what happens on Christmas Eve every year from the point of sundown to sunrise on the eastern horizon.

So, as a myth, three kings / Magi / Wise men / gifts etc., follow a bright star in the east to locate the "Virgo" born "Sun God". The nativity in Matthew does tell us when Christ was born if you're paying attention to the symbolism. Matthew puts the birth right after the three day winter solstice with it's use of "three characters / gifts", a bright "star", a "virgin", and a "divine child". The Shepard references are very clearly the old references to the priesthood, not literal shepherds. The astronomer / priesthoods - referred to as shepherds and the people their flock - are those who watched the winter solstice every year and made myths about their observations that are presented to the people in the mythos...

You just need to understand how to deal with this issue properly and then you'll be able to address some of these apologetic attempts. All of the nonsense about shepherds and sheep making the birth of Jesus not in the winter time is a false scent entirely - a complete stumbling block. It requires thinking in terms of literalism instead of symbolism and this story is completely symbolic. See CIE's section about the Christian Nativity for further clarification.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:57 pm 
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"It requires thinking in terms of literalism instead of symbolism and this story is completely symbolic."

That is where the difficulty in explaining it to them comes in. However unless you assume that the story is symbolic, which xtians will definitely not, then there doesn't appear to be anything in the passage indicating the season.

I'll admit that I used stellaerium so I could only see what it would fit on the screen. I can't look at the stars where I live. Too much cloud cover and too many obstructions.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Orion constellation video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-d_6A6t29s&NR=1

Most folks, theist or atheist forget or never learned much about symbolism or mythology. Everything seems more black or white - they tend to take everything literally or as total fiction - they can't seem to grasp the concept that there's an inbetween.

Acharya's works bring those concepts like symbolism and mythology to the forefront where they should be. Her mythicist position takes us far beyond the endless theist vs. atheist debate giving us a third option -
Quote:
The Mythicist Position:

Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not "real people" but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called "astrotheology." As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures.

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection page 12

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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