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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:30 pm 
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I'm all about the third option. :wink:

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:05 am 
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bustr wrote:
"It requires thinking in terms of literalism instead of symbolism and this story is completely symbolic."

That is where the difficulty in explaining it to them comes in. However unless you assume that the story is symbolic, which xtians will definitely not, then there doesn't appear to be anything in the passage indicating the season.

I'll admit that I used stellarium so I could only see what it would fit on the screen. I can't look at the stars where I live. Too much cloud cover and too many obstructions.


I had seen a few debunking videos on u-tube where the apologists pointed at zeitgeist as wrong for illustrating Orion and Sirius in a perfect line. I had the same questions as you Bustr. I wanted to get this thing sorted out. The way that some of these astrotheology videos have been made tends to make the person think that Orion and Sirius are in a perfect line right above the horizon and pointing straight at the sunrise, as it's rising. That is completely incorrect and it's not what the solstice alignment is about. Anyone making videos that suggest that are doing everyone a tremendous disservice because getting it all wrong only adds fuel to the apologetic fire.

I completely understand where you're coming from here Bustr. What happened is that several people had to put out videos with the stellarium, and the live footage as well, that show how it actually works. It's important to understand that it's a procession throughout the entire night, from sundown to sunrise. It's just a way of talking about the shortest days and the southernmost sunrise and referring to what the constellations are doing during the shortest days and southernmost sunrise of the year.

When it's presented correctly the Christian apologists have nowhere to go. If you pay close attention to some of the debunking attempts you'll see that apologists will try claiming that Orion and Sirius aren't in that part of the sky and even say that Sirius is above Orion by shifting their stellarium program up off the horizon line and then flipping it around backwards so Sirius is above Orion. They'll flat out lie about it by twisting the screen around the opposite way - I've seen a video do that, as ridiculous as it is. Then the response videos come in behind this apologetic claim with the stellarium program aimed at the horizon line so you can see where the stars are in relationship to it, proving the apologist completely wrong and revealing his lies by keeping the setting aimed at the horizon line and showing what actually happens.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

Proverbs 6:16 "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:

6:17 "a lying tongue"

In Psalm 5:6 leasing means falsehood or lying: "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."

The Origins of Lying

John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Descartes wrote:
In Jerusalem during the winter solstice the crux constellation (also known as southern cross) appears in the south every morning at sunrise. In those days the sun is at his maximum elongation toward the south in the horizon. Because it appears that the sun at winter solstice goes progressively toward the crux and then stand there for three days at the same azimuth, you can say it is cruci-fixed, or fixed toward the southern cross, but it never really reaches the south where the crux is. It's just that the crux in those days is a celestial reference point for the south, and the winter solstice is the moment of the year when the sun rises at the southern point in the horizon.


Me and a friend were discussing this and were a bit confused by the imagery in Zeitgeist, which shows the Southern Cross above the sun and a bit to the right in one image, and simply states that the sun is in the vicinity of it during the three days.

Now, checking out the actual layout of the sun and the stars in Stellarium (see the picture I link to), I can't see how the sun is "in the vicinity" of the Crux, but I guess one's line of thought should be something like this:

The sun lies dead on the "ground" at the horizon, and, "up ahead", sticking out of the "ground" at the horizon, is the Southern Cross. The sun doesn't align HORIZONtally with any other interesting constellation around these dates.

So the sun was crucified and died.

http://i41.tinypic.com/1221co3.jpg

Sure, I didn't know what exact location or date to choose, but the imagery works well around what I've chosen, even if one were to turn the clock back a thousand years or pick some other place in or near Israel.

I super-imposed a silhoutted version of the scene for ease of thought. To get into my line of thinking, one might imagine the sun journeying, on the "platform" that is the horizon, towards the cross. Anyway, they're both "stuck down into" the horizon.

I know Peter Joseph re-did Zeitgeist like three times, but I think there are still some improvements that ought to be made. Either that, or there's something messed up with my settings in Stellarium (though CheLevSaRa at YouTube gets the same result as me).

EDIT: We wonder though, when the Southern Cross would've been imagined to have been just that, a cross.

"The separation of Crux from Centaurus is generally attributed to the French astronomer Augustin Royer in 1679. Other historians attribute the invention of Crux to Petrus Plancius in 1613, noting that the constellation was later published by Jakob Bartsch in 1624.[citation needed]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crux#History

The 17th century seems a tad too late for it to gel with the myths. Anyone know of an earlier declaration of it having been a cross, and not something else/part of something else?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:15 pm 
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"I didn't know what exact location or date to choose, but the imagery works well around what I've chosen, even if one were to turn the clock back a thousand years or pick some other place in or near Israel"

The problem here is that this myth is at least 2,000 years older than Jesus and wasn't originated in Israel. However, Acharya's work doesn't discuss the southern cross or crux so she doesn't vouch for that since it did not come from her works. I'm glad that some objective folks are looking into it to set the record straight.
Quote:
"There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. [S73] By December 22nd, the Sun's demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it's lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days.[S74] [M] During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation.[S75] [S76] [M] And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring.[S77] And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, [D] was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again.[S78] [S79]This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun Gods share the crucifixion, 3-day death, and resurrection concept. [S80] [M] It is the Sun's transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation.[S81] [S82] [M]"
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm

[S75] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, Pages 10, 98

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/crux.htm

[S76] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p41

[S77] - Roy, S.B: Prehistoric Lunar Astronomy, Institute of Chronology, New Delhi, 1976 p.114

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/cruxd.htm

[S80] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 483-492

[S81] - Olcott, William Tyler : Suns Lore of All Ages, The Book Tree, 1914. chapter IX

Descartes has another thread around here somewhere with some more pics in it. I just can't remember which one.
Quote:
"Crux was visible to the Ancient Greeks, who regarded it as part of the constellation Centaurus. At the latitude of Athens in 1000 BC, Crux was clearly visible, though low in the sky."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crux#History

So it was the ancient Greeks who gave the constellation its name. However, it may have been brought to their attention by the Hindus or Egyptians which never seen to get any credit for these things.
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"At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significants. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."

~ Dr. Edwin Krupp, Astronomer and Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles.
* "Suns of God" page 26

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:16 am 
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Belse wrote:

We wonder though, when the Southern Cross would've been imagined to have been just that, a cross.

The 17th century seems a tad too late for it to gel with the myths. Anyone know of an earlier declaration of it having been a cross, and not something else/part of something else?


No, but considering that the Greeks were at the time great navigators and that they should have used some reference point for the south, it's likely that they noticed the southern cross in the sky.

Here's what it looks like:

Image
Image

It's pretty much evident that this group of stars has the shape of a cross.

And someone pointed out that the Longinus spear can be nothing but a line joining a couple of stars that "points" to the southern cross" (alpha centauri and beta centauri, also known as "The Pointers"), that even today are used to found it in the sky, like the northern pole star is found using the big dipper:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Incidentally the little star on the center-right of the crux constellation, Epsilon, remembers this line of the gospel:

"…but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a lance, and immediately there came out blood and water." John 19:34

Too many coincidences to be only a chance. Maybe the Longinus spear has more to do with greek secrets of sea navigation than anything else.

And think about the word "longitude". The azimuth in the sky is just but the projection of earth longitude, and maybe "Longinus" has something to do with it.

Those two stars are even today used to find the southern cross and then measuring the horizontal deviation in degrees from the south celestial pole point in the horizon (azimuth in the sky, longitude on earth) to get the heading.

Image

And what about the name of the freemasonic secret society called "Carbonari", who fought the Chatolic church in Italy during the Risorgimento? The name "Carbonari" ("coal-dealers") probably derives from the "Coal Sack" nebula near the Southern Cross, which was imagined as a deep hole in the river of the Milky Way. Maybe a reference to the real secret that the Carbonari sold to the people: the hidden meaning of the cross in the gospel.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Hey-Oh! :shock:

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:53 am 
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I've finally made the videocapture of all sunrises during the year from jerusalem. You can see that the southern cross rises on south only during december (and it's perfectly vertical only on 25 december!).

Note: The exact sunrise point is not where the sun circle is (because the sun position is only approximate due to fixed time lapses of Starry Night Pro Plus) but is the point where the yellow line of the ecliptic intercept the horizon.

Unfortunately even if the file is small (16 mb) the resolution is huge and Youtube cannot accept it.

Maybe Vega or someone else can edit it or crop it somehow. I don't have any video editing skill.

I've uploaded the avi on some file hosting sites:
http://www.filedropper.com/sunrisedurin ... cemberonly

http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/022826dd11_16.1MB

http://www.filesavr.com/sunriseduringth ... cemberonly

http://www.fileqube.com/file/ZEHGjNr193426


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Well I edited it to highlight the Cross for what it's worth. We do have an upright cross of stars during the Winter Solstice when the sun is 'dead' but I doubt if this is the source for the motif of a saviour being crucified. Acharya goes into the 'crucifixion' motif in great detail in 'Christ in Egypt'.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:20 pm 
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• The Southern Cross?

“Epiphanius’s of the Kikellia or winter-solstice festival continues with him relating that the celebration took place at the large Egyptian city of Alexandria “at the so-called Virgin’s shrine.” …Epiphanius next describes this festival as follows (51, 22.9-10):

Quote:
“First at Alexandria, in the Coreum, as they call it; it is a very large temple, the shrine of Core. They stay up all night singing hymns to the idol with a flute accompaniment. And when they have concluded their nightlong vigil torchbearers descend into an underground shrine after cockcrow…and bring up a wooden image which is seated naked <on> a litter. It has a sign of the cross inlaid with gold on its forehead, two other such signs, [one] on each hand, and two other signs, [one] actually [on each of] its two knees – altogether five signs with a gold impress. And they carry the image itself seven times round the innermost shrine with flutes, tambourines and hymns, hold a feast, and take it back down to its place underground. And when you ask them what this mystery means they reply that today at this hour Core – that is, the virgin – gave birth to Aeo.”


Here we find a Pagan sacred icon with a cross on its forehead, like that made by Catholic priests on the heads of Christian worshippers. We also discover this sacred image constitutes the divine son of the holy virgin mother within Paganism! This Pagan virgin mother was styled Core or Kore, meaning “maiden,” as another name for the Greek nature goddess Persephone, who descended each year into the underworld, to return at spring time, bringing life back with her. This descent into the underworld and the resurrection to life are echoed in a number of myths, including that of Jesus, a subject treated more fully later in the present work. Kore’s son Aeo or Aion is called “the eternal,” whose birth from a virgin constitutes as mystery, presumably ages prior to the Common Era. The fact that the virgin-birth motif represents a mystery explains why it is currently not widely known to have existed long before the purported advent of Jesus Christ and his alleged virgin birth, because evidently it was written down frequently, and where even rarely it was memorialized, many reference may have been destroyed or hidden. In this regard, it is our contention that Christianity constitutes little more than the mysteries turned inside out and broadcast openly. Moreover, the fact that there was a “very large temple” at Alexandria devoted to the worship of the virgin mother, even named after her, is indication of her worship as both widespread and ancient. …Regarding Epiphanius’s account, in a chapter entitled “The Virgin Birth”, Joseph Campbell writes:

Quote:
We learn from the fourth-century saint and churchman Epiphanius (ca. 315-402), for example, of an annual festival observed in Alexandria on January 6, the date assigned to the Epiphany and (originally) the Nativity of Christ, and to his Baptism as well. The pagan occasion was in celebration of the birth of the year-god Aion to the virgin goddess Kore, a Hellenized transformation of Isis.”


Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection

Now several things are apparent here. In Alexandria, a symbol of a golden “Cross” was associated with a “Virgo” oriented winter solstice celebration. The Date of January 6th is involved. That date being an ancient date for the “winter solstice”. That celebration date appears to place the winter solstice "Virgo" and “Cross” symbolism back to the time frame of 2,000 BCE according to Descartes astronomical program chart:

Quote:
In the Age of Aries:

Jerusalem 2000 BC
1 January - 117° 48.932'
2 January - 117° 51.190'
3 January - 117° 52.859'
4 January - 117° 54.004'
5 January - 117° 54.554'
6 January - 117° 54.577'
7 January - 117° 53.940'
8 January - 117° 52.776'
9 January - 117° 51.097'
10 January - 117° 48.762'
11 January - 117° 45.896'



Quote:
"Crux was visible to the Ancient Greeks, who regarded it as part of the constellation Centaurus. At the latitude of Athens in 1000 BC, Crux was clearly visible, though low in the sky."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crux#History


Now it seems obvious that the oldest “crossification” motifs deal with the sun “crossing over” the sky as Acharya covers on pages 342 – 343 of CIE:

Quote:
The God Sun is…the one who “Crosses over the sky and passes through the underworld.” The sun “Passing over” or “crossing over” is thus repeated many times in the ancient texts, his movements representing a sort of “crossification.” …The God Atum is likewise depicted with arms outstretched, as CT Sp. 136: “…I have extended my arms, I have ruled the sky…”


This is same kind of image Moor gives for the ancient “crossification” of Wittoba / Balaji / Krishna. The old outstretched arms motif is about the sun crossing over. It looks like the constellation “Crux” was named as such by at least 1000 BC after the sun’s “crossification” symbolism had long existed already in certain religions. Someone probably noticed that the stars formed a cross-like pattern and that you can see these cross looking stars during the winter solstice time of year. Since the Kore celebration happened at the old winter solstice time frame of Jan 6 well after the solstice had changed to Dec 25, when the Crux is visible on the southern horizon, I'd say that the Crux was a part of the winter solstice celebration way back into the Age of Aries and these people were carrying on a very anceint tradition of recognizing the southern cross.

I doubt that the astronomer / priests in the ancient world could have missed the “Crux” constellation standing upright above the southern horizon during the winter solstice time of year when sun is at its furthest point south, towards the constellation that resembles a "cross", a symbol that had long existed in mythology. So there’s another aspect of consideration towards the Alexandrian’s creating the Christian mythology. When they applied the cross symbolism to their new hybridized myth making attempts it was likely already embedded with both the old "Crux" and "Crossification" motifs that were around in the Age of Aries and were carried over to the Age of Pisces and applied to the Christ story as they were creating it.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:37 am 
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An interesting chapter from the book "Mazzaroth" by Frances Rolleston (1862):

Quote:
THE SOUTHERN CROSS

This remarkable constellation is said to suggest to every one the idea of a cross, particularly when in attaining the meridian its upper and lower star are perpendicularly on it. Though now no longer visible in the north temperate zone, it was seen there from the time of Adam and Seth to that of the Christian era. It seems impossible that a constellation of such brilliancy and distinctness should have been omitted in the early arrangement of the emblems, though gradually declining in altitude from a considerable elevation, till the topmost star disappeared under the horizon of the latitude of Jerusalem, about the time of the awful sacrifice it prefigured. This fact, and this alone, reasonably accounts for the ancient tradition, that whenever the south polar constellation should be discovered, it would be found to be in the form of a cross (Dupuis, &c.). The ancient Persians celebrated a feast of the cross a few days before the sun entered Aries, when this constellation would be brilliant among the stars of night. Its disappearance may be thus briefly explained. Owing to the greater thickness of the earth at the equator, that part of the earth comes every year a little sooner to what are called the equinoxes, the points where the ecliptic crosses the equator; consequently the north pole moves every year a little farther on in the circle it describes in the northern sky. Thus it has gradually receded from the Southern Cross. This movement being known to be about 50" in a year, the place of the stars in ancient times can be ascertained by it (Humboldt's Cosmos, Herschel, &c.).

It is well known that the cross was a sacred emblem in the Egyptian mythology. The Arabians and Indians also, before the coming of Christ, venerated this emblem. There is in the British Museum a large silvery cross, taken from the mummy of an Egyptian priest. Sozomenes, AD 443, relates that "there was found in the temple of Serapis the sign of the cross, surrounded by hieroglyphics, which meant the life to come." The last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, thau, was originally in the form of a cross; and its name means boundary, limit, finishing (as in Genesis 49:26), as of the Messiah's work, as when He said, "It is finished."

When this constellation began to sink below the horizon in the north temperate zone, and its form was no longer apparent, its memory seems there to have been lost, and its place among the decans to have been supplied by the division of some other emblem. Ptolemy substituted the half-horse, to make up the number of the constellations to forty-eight: an injudicious contrivance still preserved on our globes. Others, by reckoning as separate constellations the Pleaides and Southern Crown, and making the number forty-nine or more, threw into confusion the original arrangement of three decans to each sign.

Dante, who was a great astronomer as well as poet, supposes himself at the antipodes of Jerusalem, and describes what he would have certainly seen there, these "four stars never beheld but by the early race of man." Humboldt conjectures he had seen them on Arabian globes: but at the time he wrote southern voyagers had brought the report of them, though as yet they had seen but four.

"In the fourth century the Christian anchorites in the Thebaid would see the Southern Cross at an altitude of 10o." "It will again appear in the northern latitudes, but after the lapse of thousands of years" (Humboldt).

In a recent letter from Australia, a working man writes home with much admiration of the Southern Cross, calling it "our constellation," "the constellation of Australia." May the omen be fulfilled!

Still, it should be borne in mind that even this emblem, so dear to the heart of the Christian, has been, like the brazen serpent of old, made an object of almost idolatrous veneration. That serpent must have been lifted up on a cross, no other form would support it, even as our Lord Himself was lifted up, that whoso looketh on Him may live: but when the people offered incense to it, it must be broken, as Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4), a mere piece of brass. To this resplendent starry symbol no desecrating honours appear to have been offered. Regarded as a memorial of our faith, it may be very precious to our expatriated brethren, and remind them that the crucified Saviour will be present, according to His promise, where "two or three" of them are gathered together in His name, in those Australian wilds, as He has been to their northern ancestors from whose sky its splendours have so long departed.

From the calculations of modern astronomy we learn that the constellations of our sky, at least the principal ones, if we were transported to the nearest fixed star, would be seen in the same grouping as from the earth. This fact is peculiarly interesting as to the Southern Cross. May not the sacrifice offered on earth upon the cross extend to the universe of starry worlds? it should seem so from what St. Paul says, "Making peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself, by Him, whether things in earth or things in heaven."

NOTE I

"The cross was the symbol of worship of the highest antiquity in Egypt and Syria, said to signify the life to come. Champollion interprets it support, or Saviour." "It is among the ruins of Palenque with a child held up to it in adoration." (Prescott's Mexico.)

NOTE II

Kennicott thought that "instruments of cruelty in their habitations" (Gen 49:5) related prophetically to the cross of Christ: the nails, the scourge, and spear might be included. The cross occurs here as the third decan or accompanying constellation of Libra. On the breastplate of the high priest the name of Levi and the sign Libra appear to have been engraven on the same stone. In the third decan of Libra the Persians, according to Albumazer, had the name Arbedi, one sense of which is "to cover," as in Proverbs 30:22. This might well be derived from the traditionary revelation, that on the cross the charity, the love, the sacrifice of the Redeemer should cover a multitude of sins. The Southern Cross is immediately below the victim, the atoning sacrifice.

NOTE III

Should any one wish to follow, on the modern celestial globe, the position assigned to this constellation in former ages, it will be necessary to reckon back the precession of the equinoxes to the time required, as altering the boundaries of the signs, the position of the colures and of the pole of the earth. While the pole of the ecliptic, in reference to which the stars are divided, is fixed, the pole of the equator has a motion in consequence of that of the equinoxes. About 6000 years since it would point to the brightest star in the tail of the dragon, which must be considered as the pole-star, in trying to rectify the globe for that time. This must be done for N. lat. 36o or thereabouts, which the traces of ancient astronomy have been thought to indicate as that where the earliest observations were made. Such being the situation of the sources of the river Euphrates, this supposition agrees with what is said in Genesis 2 as to the original habitation of mankind, the fountains at least of great rivers apparently not having been altered by the deluge. The Southern Cross will then be found to rise about 16o above the horizon when on the meridian; this altitude gradually lessening, its highest star will be seen to have disappeared from the latitude of Jerusalem about the time of the crucifixion of our Lord.

NOTE IV

"In consequence of the precession of the equinoxes the starry heavens are continually changing their aspect from every portion of the earth's surface. The early races of mankind beheld in the North the glorious constellation of the Southern Hemisphere rise before them, which, after remaining long invisible, will again appear in these latitudes after the lapse of thousands of years. At Berlin, and in the northern latitudes, the stars of the Southern Cross, as well as a and b Centauri, are receding more and more from view. The Southern Cross began to become invisible in 52o 30' north latitude, 2900 years before our era. According to Galle it might previously have reached an altitude of more than 10o...I am indebted to the communications of my friend Dr. Galle, by whom Le Verrier's planet was first discovered in the heavens, for all the calculations respecting the visibility of southern stars in northern latitudes." (Humboldt, Cosmos.)

"The constellation of the Southern Cross has acquired a peculiar character of importance from the beginning of the sixteenth century, owing to the religious feelings of Christian navigators and missionaries who have visited the tropical and southern seas, and both the Indies. The four principal stars are mentioned in the Almagest, and were regarded in the time of Adrian and Antoninus Pius as parts of the constellation of the Centaur. At the time of Claudius Ptolemaeus the beautiful star at the base of the Southern Cross had still an altitude of 6o 10' at its meridian passage at Alexandria, whilst in the present day it culminates there several degrees below the horizon. In order, at this time (1847), to see a Crucis at an altitude of 6o 10' it is necessary, taking the refraction into account, to be 10o south of Alexandria in the parallel of 21o 43' north latitude. In the fourth century the Christian anchorites in the Thebaid desert might have seen the Cross at an altitude of 10o. Dante says in the celebrated passage in the Purgatorio:

'Io mi volse a man destra, e posi mente
All' altro polo, e vidi quattro stelle,
Non viste mai fuor ch' alla prima gente.'

And Amerigo Vespucci, who at the aspect of the starry skies of the South, first called to mind this passage on his third voyage, boasted that he now looked on the four stars never seen till then by any but the first human race."

This constellation is mentioned by Christian missionaries and navigators as "a wonderful cross more glorious than all the constellations in the heavens."

Acosta mentions that in the Spanish settlements of tropical America the first settlers were accustomed, as is now done, to use the Southern Cross as a celestial clock, reckoning the hour from its vertical or inclined position.

Humboldt says, "the Persian, Kaswini, and other Mahomedan astronomers took pains to discover crosses in the Dolphin and the Dragon." This has probably been to account for the feast of the Cross observed in ancient Persia.

Humboldt says of the Divina Commedia, "The philosophical and religious mysticism which vivifies the grand composition of Dante assigns to all objects besides their real existence an ideal one, it seems almost as if we beheld two worlds reflected in one another." "The ideal world is a free creation of the soul, the product of poetic inspiration."

source: http://books.google.com/books?id=hTABAA ... =titlepage

Being Italian I can translate the passage of Dante Alighieri for you:

'Io mi volse a man destra, e posi mente
All' altro polo, e vidi quattro stelle,
Non viste mai fuor ch' alla prima gente.'

'I looked in the direction of my right hand, and my
attention shifted toward the other pole, and I saw four stars,
never seen before, if not by the ancient people.'

I see at least four references to the southern cross here. And Dante wrote the Divina Commedia in the year 1304, well before the date when crux was supposedly discovered (1501).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:30 am 
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I've found many confirmations that the southern cross can be used as a celestial clock, like the maya used to do:

Quote:
The Southern Cross is our Wheel of Life manifested in heavens with her 4 main stars (Alfa Cross, Beta Cross, Delta Cross and Gamma Cross) forming their positions a cross and almost oriented toward the 4 cardinal points when its major axis is vertical over us, exactly the first days of May. And, the other 4 points in the wheel ar formed by its intermediate points as Huaman Poma reflected on his drawings. (Milla, 1995)

Souther Cross also indicates our Southern North and natural cycles:

“if we could observe in the open during the day and then throughout the night, we would still be disconcerted by another of its movements. It would seem as its main axis sweeps the sky as a gigantic pointer on a clock dial. And in fact that is the Southrn Cross, an enormous celestial clock during any month and any year. The line traced from the superior star and going through the end of the cross, signals eternally the austral celestial Southern Pole, exactly like the polar star indicates the true North in the Boreal Hemisphere” (free translation, quote on Milla, 1995)

Following the Southern Cross the Andean people distributed their territories:

“…in the pre pottery epoch, the Andean communitarian state known as Pusisuyu, in Amara or Tawantinsuyu in Quechua or Runasimi language… “The Pusisuyu was Wiñaymarca, that is the mancommunities of the four cardinal points, they were continous, eternal referring to the total content of the communitarian Jakaña system”… Orientations and the number of its 4 regions or Suyus are linked to the 4 stars in the Southern Cross constellation. The navel, Ccosco or Taypicala would be the crossing point of both arms and would have been situated originally in Tiwanaku” (free translation, quoted in Milla, 1995).

But, as everything detaching from the Wheel of Life, or if you want to say it otherwise, from cosmic movements that give us life, from the Southern Cross dettaches forgotten history:

The Southern Cross is known in these territories as Chakana, which means bridge, crossed sticks, but also South. The chakana representation has remained as lithic archeological legacy in the shape of a staggered cross in countless places of South America that to these days is known as the Andean Sacred Cross.

http://www.losbosques.net/?p=1085

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source: http://books.google.it/books?id=DgqLplW ... ry_r&cad=0

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I suspect that the egyptian were well aware of this night sky clock. Rotating at the same rate of the earth, it's practically a 24h clock hand in the sky.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:11 am 
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Hermes

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I think that if we put togheter the image provided by Belse with some other images of the path of the sun and the analemma during the year, the importance of the cross as the signpost of the lower end of the sun journey becomes clear:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:20 am 
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The 'heavens' are the 'smoking gun' of religion.

The 1st commandment should have been: "Thou shalt not look up" :D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:56 pm 
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3 Kings/Orion's Belt & Solstice/Christmas:

We have several threads scattered around the forum on this same topic so, I've merged a couple and organized the links to articles, threads and videos below so everything may be easily found.

When Was the First Christmas?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/first-christmas.html

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the 'Reason for the Season'
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christmas.htm

The Star in the East and Three Kings
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/s ... kings.html

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the 'Reason for the Season' (Forum Section: Religion, Spirituality & Secularism)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2968

When Was the First Christmas? (Forum Section: Comparative Religion, Mythology & Astrotheology)
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3593&p=21944#p21944

Magi, Wisemen or 3 Kings? (Forum Section: Comparative Religion, Mythology & Astrotheology)
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1451&start=0

3 kings and precession of equinoxes (Forum Section: Archaeology, Archaeoastronomy and Astronomy)
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2830&start=0

Star alignment & Christmas (Forum Section: Christ in Egypt)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2617&start=0

3 Kings/Orion's Belt & Solstice/Christmas (Forum Section: Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence)
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3606

Atheists at Christmas: Eat, drink and be wary (Forum Section: Religion, Spirituality & Secularism)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2965&view=next

Orion constellation video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-d_6A6t29s&NR=1

We three kings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GjJ82EpcGE

Southern Cross at the Winter Solstice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJ3pYiQEPk

Christmas: The REAL Reason for the Season?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcCEZflIP4

Keep the Nativity Scenes at Christmas!
http://www.examiner.com/freethought-in- ... -christmas

Holiday Lights: Forgotten Winter Constellations Now Visible at Night
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/holiday ... 01206.html

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The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:29 am 
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Orion, Sirius, Argo - Three Wise Men, Star, Manger

Look at the southern sky on Christmas night from any point south of about 30º north latitude. When Orion reaches its highest point, due south, at 11pm, the three stars of Orion’s Belt point east to Sirius, the brightest star in the sky. Continuing the line past Sirius to the southeastern horizon presents an interesting discovery, the manger of Christ.

Orion culminates, like all stars, at the meridian, the line joining the southern and northern horizons through the zenith. As Orion reaches the meridian, a faint group of stars rises, low in the south from northern latitudes, high in the south from southern latitudes.

This group of stars is little known, and today goes under the name of Vela, the sails of the great ship Argo Navis. Argo Navis was seen as too big for modern astronomy, and was broken up into sails, mast, deck and keel. In olden days Argo was also called Noah’s Ark. It corresponds to a range of mythic sources. Columba the dove flies before Canopus, the second brightest star in the sky after Sirius, in correspondence to the release of the dove by Noah. Argo is known in India as Agastya, the word at the root of the names of the vessels of Gilgamesh, Osiris, Noah and Jason.

From the north, observation of Argo moving across the southern horizon each winter matched closely to the slow rise of Orion over the precessional time scale of the Great Year. Ten thousand years ago, Orion was barely visible from northern temperate latitudes, but due to precession Orion has since moved to its current position at the celestial equator. The high point is reached in 2310, after which Orion will again move southward over the next ten thousand years. This rise and fall of Orion is caused by precession of the equinox, following the Great Year cycle period conventionally 25,920 years or 72 years per degree of arc.

I mention these details of the period of precession because the cycle of the stars is encoded into the myths of the Ark in an intriguing way. A person’s life is about 72 years, or one degree of precession. Using the ancient sixty base numbering system for geometry and time, there are 50 arc seconds of precession each year, matching to the 50 oarsmen who rowed with Jason to the Golden Fleece, and with Gilgamesh in his Epic. The 50 oars of the Argo are the 50 arc seconds of precession each year.

Back to the manger. If Argo is reconstructed with Canopus as its prow, the building on the deck equates to the manger. The story of Noah’s Ark, with animals two by two, is thereby recapitulated in the story of Christ, with the animals in the stable around the manger matching the animals on the ark. The building on the deck of the ark also is a good candidate as the stellar representation of the coffin of Osiris, sailing down the Nile each spring. Against the as above so below dictum that is central to Osirian cosmology, the physical boat on the river is mirrored precisely by Argo in the heavens behind the boat at the southern horizon. Each spring equinox, Argo has precessed by 50 arc seconds. Over the thousands of years of Egyptian civilization, the gradual movement of Argo across the southern meridian at the spring equinox, following Orion at the winter solstice, would have been recorded by the stellar magi.

Just as the Greeks put Hercules and Andromeda in the sky, here we see the story in the stars of baby Jesus with the three wise men and the star in the east. The three wise men, Orion’s Belt, journeyed from the east by rising each winter night in the east. As they reach their destination, the highest point, due south, a line through them to Sirius points out the position of the manger rising at the south eastern horizon.

Reasons why this simple explanation has been forgotten include the antipathy to pagan star worship by Christianity, and the fact that Argo is not fully visible from Europe. The Argonautica explains that the Argo lost its prow ornament as it crossed the Hellespont. The Greeks imagined Argo in the sky as moving backwards, even though a simpler rendering of the constellation puts Alpha Carinae, Canopus, as the prow star.

The Eurocentric cultural processes that determined legitimacy of intellectual discussion led to severe neglect of the ancient southern myths. Indeed, the whole Osirian mind remains under heavy suppression. My view is that Greek logic defined its assumptions in hostility to Asia, which they saw as mystical and imprecise, through the lens of war with Persia. Just as Asia is the source of Wotan’s Norse Gods the Aesir, the word Asia is very close to the Egyptian words Osiris and Issa.

Western antipathy to all things oriental goes back to this Greek prejudice against Egyptian religion, even while accepting parts of it in the Mysteries. Only when Egyptian religion was subordinated and incorporated into Christianity could Greek thought accept Egyptian concepts, in fragmented and distorted form, rather like how Argo has been broken up and reversed in direction in modern star maps.

The story of Argo is a parable for the world. Argo unites the mythology of India, Babylon, Egypt, Greece and the Bible, but such unity of cosmic vision was not acceptable for literal historical faith. Nor was the myth of Argo acceptable for the arrogance of European logic, and it had to be broken up and reversed. Just as Horus brings Osiris back to life, we see here in this perennial observation of the babe in the manger rising in the eastern sky at Christmas that the cosmic basis of the story has been suppressed but has an inner eternal vitality.
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