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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:25 pm 
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GodAlmighty's mention of the ankh reminds me of John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up"

This refers back to Exodus 7 and Numbers 21: 8-9
Quote:
Exodus 7
1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: ...
9When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
10And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.


Quote:
Numbers 21: 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Interesting you bring that up. In Zabkar's book on the Ba, he mention's how the Bas of all the gods could often manifest as serpents, so that would include Horus. And it is of course no secret how immersed the Egyptian culture was in serpent imagery.
As were many ancient cultures, because the serpent was a symbol of life. By the shedding of its skin it was a symbol of being born again, resurrected, or reincarnated. When Krishna's brother Balarama died, he saw a white serpent shoot forth out of Balarama's mouth and crawl into the sea. The spirit shedding its human skin, so to speak.
The serpent also represented life by representing the phallus(for obvious reasons) as life for mankind cannot continue without the phallus.
And the ouroboros was yet another symbol for infinity/eternity/etc.

So it only makes sense that the author of John (the most Egyptian of the gospels, from what I hear) chose the serpent, and specifically a serpent on a staff, as an allegory for the eternal life offered by the crucifixion & resurrection of his messiah.

In this relief dated to the 12th dynasty, 1991-1962 BC, thus far PREdating the Old Testament, Horus is giving the cross of life to his Ba, while behind it there is... a serpent lifted up on a staff. :) It is bearing a shen ring, a symbol for eternity.-

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ImageImage



Here is a scarab gem dated to the New Kingdom period, of a serpent coiled over an ankh cross-

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Ankh cross flanked by two serpents(instead of two thieves :wink:)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:04 pm 
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"Crucifixion is an ancient method of deliberately painful execution in which the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang until dead."

"Definition of CRUCIFY

transitive verb
1
: to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross"

The answer is no. Horus was not crucified.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:07 pm 
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With the new apologetics and the semantic games that have arisen in recently years from it, I think the Horus list should read that Horus was depicted in cruciform:

A. Horus: depicted in cruciform.
B. Jesus: depicted in cruciform.

That tends to dead end the semantics game. Of course Horus was presented in cruciform and crossification of deities is itself a bloody old motif.

And of course the Jesus the myth follows behind these earlier motifs drawing on the same cruciform symbolism by way of the popular Roman Crucifixion process which makes for a good way of presenting this old symbolism. It seems more of a literary invention than anything else.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Truth_Seeker wrote:
"Crucifixion is an ancient method of deliberately painful execution in which the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang until dead."

"Definition of CRUCIFY

transitive verb
1
: to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross"

The answer is no. Horus was not crucified.

Welcome to the forum, Truth_Seeker. It would be wise, of course, to actually read the article, which is the subject of this thread: Was Horus "Crucified?", as well as read through the posts in this thread also feel free to read the 30 page chapter in the book if you're seriously interested in this subject.

You've provided a quote from Wikipedia, which is well known to be edited by Christians, and a definition selected by Christians. If you'll take the time to study the history on this subject you'll learn that the bible, in its original language, never claims Jesus was even crucified on a cross - it uses the Greek word for pale or stake. You'll also learn that crucifixion had spiritual or religious meanings thousands of years prior to the advent of Christianity providing mythical concepts later utilized by Christians. The symbol of the cross itself is a very ancient solar symbol signifying the sun. We still to this day see no credible evidence that the New Testament Jesus ever existed.

Without the Christian biases: "severe and unjust punishment or suffering; persecution"

Quote:
Jesus and the Cross

The most important symbol in Christianity today is the cross. However, there is no cross in early Christian art before the middle of the 5th century, where it appears on a coin in a painting. The first clear crucifixion image of Jesus appears in the late 7th century. Before then, Jesus was almost always depicted as a fish or a Shepard, not on a cross. Any bible that contains the word "cross" or "crucify" is dishonest.

Quote:
"The Babylonians, Egyptians, Aztecs & others had cross symbols. However, there is no cross in Christianity. No cross at all! There is no cross anywhere in the bible. The words which have been translated "cross" & "crucify" in the New Testament are "stauross" or "stavross" & "stavrooh". All translators, even fundamentalists, agree that they are not a cross. Liddell & Scotts A Greek-English Lexicon defines "stauross" or "stavross" as "upright pale or stake". W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament words, another Christian resource, reports that "stauross" or "stavross" - "denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake."

- "Losing Faith in Faith" page 203-4 by Dan Barker, former Christian Pastor of 20 years

Quote:
"In the gospel story Jesus tells his disciples to 'take up the cross' & follow him. Obviously, the cross already existed and was a well-known symbol, such that Jesus did not even have to explain this strange statement about an object that, we are led to believe, only gained significance AFTER Jesus died on it..."

"...The early Christians were actually repulsed by the image of a man hanging on the cross which was not adopted until the 7th century. Walker states, "Early Christians even repudiated the cross because it was pagan...Early images of Jesus represented him not on a cross, but in the guise of the Osirian or Hermetic 'Good Sheperd,' carrying a lamb..."

- Christ Conspiracy pg 218

Quote:
"As is acknowledged by the Catholic Encyclopedia ("Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix"):

"The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization."

"It is also, according to Milani, a symbol of the sun…, and seems to denote its daily rotation."

The cross was in pre-Christian times a common symbol, revered as a divine sign, an emblem of the solar deity, representing the times of the year when the sun appears to be "hung on a cross," i.e., the vernal and autumnal equinoxes."

"early Christian writer Minucius Felix (c. 250) in his Octavius, in which Felix denied that Christians worship a "criminal and his cross," which may signify a denial of Jesus being a "criminal," rather than that Christianity did not then possess the tradition of a god crucified."

"Tertullian, likewise confirmed the Pagan cross and crucifix, in his response to the charges that Christians adored the cross. As CE relates:

"The Christian apologists, such as Tertullian (Apol., xvi; Ad. Nationes, xii) and Minucius Felix (Octavius, lx, xii, xxviii), felicitously replied to the pagan taunt by showing that their persecutors themselves adored cruciform objects."

"In The Apology (Chapter XVI), Tertullian writes:

"Then, if any of you think we render superstitious adoration to the cross, in that adoration he is sharer with us...We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy....Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god..."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/kcrucified_4.htm

Quote:
"The verb "to crucify" comes from the Latin crucifigere, which simply means "to fix to a cross" and does not necessarily signify to throw down to the ground and nail a living person to a cross. To be "crucified," therefore, could refer to an image of a god or man simply fixed to a cross, as in a crucifix. In discussing "crucifixion," then, the point to keep in mind is the contention that various mythical motifs such as the god with outstretched arms or the sun on the cross were already in existence and revered long prior to the common era, likely utilized in the weaving of the Christ myth."

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection page 336

Quote:
"The cross...is a symbol of the highest antiquity, but the representation of a figure with the hands and feet pierced with nails belongs to a later period. The most ancient delineation of the cruciform attitude is the figure of the god in the vault of heaven, with outstretched arms, blessing the universe."

- Christ in Egypt 348

The word "Crucifixion"

Cruciforms/Gods on Crosses

Hanging Jesus on a tree

Quote:
"[Horus] is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's
Dr. Price's review of Acharya's book "Christ in Egypt"

When dealing with the issue of crucifixion it's important to realize just how influenced and affected we all are today in the sense that most of us are quite familiar with the Jesus story from the New Testament. Christianity has "borrowed" that concept and twisted it into a ritual blood sacrifice. We have a tendency to treat Jesus' crucifixion as the original when it is not. It is a twisted version of an ancient mythical concept based on natural phenomena - astrotheology.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:15 am 
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I think it's fair to say that what is implied when you say "Horus was crucified" is that he was staked to a pole (I agree that it didn't necessarily have to be a t-shape, as I've also read it was usually a straight pole). I don't understand how my position on this can be wrong based on earlier interpretations of crucifixion, since Christians are referring to the literal act used to execute criminals in ancient Rome. The Zeitgeist movie makes this claim, but does not extrapolate on the actual meaning. If your actual intent is to say that a) Horus was shown in cruciform and b) Jesus was shown in cruciform, that would seem correct. But again, that's not what was stated in Zeitgeist. Furthermore, it seems more logical to conclude that the cruciform appearance of Horus symbolizes a falcon with wings outstretched, while the cruciform appearance of Jesus symbolizes being crucified on a pole. When viewed in this light, this doesn't seem like a valid Horus-Jesus connection. It's quite a stretch at best, completely false at worse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:07 am 
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^ I agree that ZG the movie doesn't give an indepth analysis of the situation. But then again it wasn't necessarily created to give an indepth analysis either. Peter Joseph was just skimming through a wide range of material as briefly as possible for a small film festival and then threw it on the internet afterward without realizing that the thing would take off like it did.

That's why the ZG sourcebook was in order and also CiE. If you're really interested in these parallels then you may want to browse a lot of the links already provided in this thread. You'd understand a lot more about it if you read through CiE too. The cruciform image in mythology is wide spread and ancient, it has astrotheological meaning, and as you can see the Christians introduced this late into the evolution.

And if introduced late, then why and to emulate what exactly?

This is the type of simple question that Bart Ehrman fails to face so often. Why the virgin birth? Why did cruciform images appear much later? These are obviously adopted from pre-existing mythological ideas as Christianity began to grow and usurp the surrounding belief systems. You have a solar myth that decorates itself with more and more solar motifs as it goes along, as people recognize what it is and insist on including more and more of it. And by the end we're left with a new emerging mythology rich in astrotheological lore and solar symbolism through and through.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:58 am 
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Was Horus Crucified?


_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:50 am 
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My reading of the Book of the Dead has not led me to any actual evidence of the ancient Horus being crucified. I'd definitely like to read Christ in Egypt although I need to save up to buy the book within the future - in the meantime doers anyone know of any other resources to do with Jesus and Horus.

I have a Youtube account where I have listed the parallels with Jesus and Horus and although I don't agree with the crucifixion, there definitely still is similarities like
*Both are the bread, food and sacrifice
*Both sit upon a throne with God
*Both are the leaders with the angels (or other Gods) at their command

Also other Egyptian Gods like Osiris and Isis etc mixing them together you can come to the Jesus which was created as found in the Gospels
*Isis' blood purifies the sinner
*Osiris was resurrected

Sorry I am moving onto another argument here but yes I am not too sure about Horus being crucified as I cannot find it anywhere in the book of the Dead.

I personally do believe in a historical Jesus but the Jesus that we find in the Gospels has been completely altered via the Greek authors who wrote about him - and of course I strongly believe these authors knew about ancient Egypt's Gods as they created their Jesus with Isis, Osiris, Horus even with Gods like Prometheus etc for their Jesus Myth found in the Gospels.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:25 am 
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The Book of the Dead, even as large a "book" as it is, is but only a very tiny fraction of the entire corpus of Egyptian religious literature that is documented. Most of it still remains untranslated, let alone translated into English. However, there is still plenty of material to use. Also, make sure your copy of the BOTD is not Budge's (edit: I see in another thread that it is, as you said yours is Penguin Classics. Get a more updated translation) or any other 19th century copy, those are severely outdated. Also shy away from those online translations that are self-published by laymen, as they tend to be too biased and inaccurate.

Anyway, you can also get the Pyramid Texts. I recommend Faulkner's version over James Allen's. There's also the Coffin Texts, also by Faulkner.

There really is just too much to list. Hornung has a translation of the Book of Amduat, which was then translated into English.

Joshua Roberson did a compilation of The Book of the Earth corpus.

John Darnell published a book on The Enigmatic Netherworld text (can't remember if it's a complete translation though).

Mark J. Smith published a collection of late Egyptian texts in Traversing Eternity.

On & on it goes.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Hello -

Please read the article that is the subject of this thread, as well as the lengthy chapter in Christ in Egypt from which it is partially excerpted:

Was Horus "Crucified?"

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