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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Jesus

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Christanity didn't start in Rome. It started in Israel when Jesus died and rose again and set up His Church in Jerusalem with the original 11 disciples (Judas had hung himself) when Peter gave his message in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. The Catholic Church in Rome was not; I repeat; was not the True Church of Jesus Christ!! Paul went to Rome but Peter never went to Rome!! Yet; even if Peter did; he never set up anything that resembles the Catholic Church and all of its heresies and errors and fallacies!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Bast

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You are probably right about the deat year, but I remember reading that his son was a fanatic esp. compared to Tiberius who unlike Augustus openly and secretly denied godhood. I only meant to imply Augustus was an egomaniac, but this is mainly arrived at from those who propagated his godhood.

I never denied that some early Christians were killed, just as they, or others with the same faith, would later kill others.

You wrote; ""the use of the sidereal year divided into 12 portions was ancient even in the West, and certainly before the advent of Buddha on the religious scenarios"

do you have a source for the earliest appearance of twelve months? Stonehedge? Homer's twelve companions? 12 sons of Jacob? Some even suppose a Pythagorean calendar when to them the cycle was 10.

By the way the Wheel of life, or wheel of becoming, unlike the Jain clock, was Buddhist and first divided into 12 sections. Some have suggested that the 12 links of interdependant origination were exagerated to reach 12, whatever the case we see with the Buddhist wheel with eight sections also stood for different directions, the swastika became the cross of Kanishka (tau) and may have represented good fortune among the four paths (good to better, good to bad, bad to good, bad to worse)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:46 am 
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Apollo
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DanHopkins wrote:
You wrote; ""the use of the sidereal year divided into 12 portions was ancient even in the West, and certainly before the advent of Buddha on the religious scenarios"

do you have a source for the earliest appearance of twelve months? Stonehedge? Homer's twelve companions? 12 sons of Jacob? Some even suppose a Pythagorean calendar when to them the cycle was 10.


Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it?
Therein are set together spokes three hundred and sixty, which in nowise can be loosened.


-The Rig Veda

Of course, this is also from the east. But the 12 month year was known before Buddha and Jainas too.

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Janani Janmabhoomishcha Swargadapi Gareeyasi - Being near to your mother in your motherland is better than being in paradise

Ekavarnam yatha dugdham binnavarnasu dhenushu | tataiva dharmavaichitryam tatvam ekam param smritam ||
Just as milk is of only one colour though obtained from cows of different colours so also the peculiarities of different religious thoughts lead to the same one ultimate truth - Mahabharatha


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:09 am 
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Bast

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:12 pm
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Balu,


Thanks for the reply. I have seen other obsure references in the Rg hinting at the use of 12 months. Of course the writings in the Rig Veda REPRESENTs the oldest form of religon that is well known to us but the earliest copies are usually dated to around 500 years ago.

Also there is some evidence suggesting that the different Rg versions added little compared to the later Vedas which borrowed some (the rope thought to be a snake).



The earliest reference to 12 months that is not Buddhist or Jain is a direct reference in the earliest Mahabharata (giita). Six months for the suns journey north, and six south.
Curious as to how 'nave' is translated and the other Vedas seem to imply months based on the ten avatars of Vishnu.

A pre-Buddhist or pre-Jain sunwheel would help.

Thanks






"The old man can obtain merit by religion; old age is helpless for the enjoyment of pleasures; therefore they say that pleasures belong to the young man, wealth to the middle-aged, and religion to the old"


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Bast

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:04 pm
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moses737 wrote:
Christanity didn't start in Rome. It started in Israel when Jesus died and rose again and set up His Church in Jerusalem with the original 11 disciples (Judas had hung himself) when Peter gave his message in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. The Catholic Church in Rome was not; I repeat; was not the True Church of Jesus Christ!! Paul went to Rome but Peter never went to Rome!! Yet; even if Peter did; he never set up anything that resembles the Catholic Church and all of its heresies and errors and fallacies!!


He never set up any church you have to exist in order to start something.

Quote:
True Church of Jesus Christ!!


What was his true church? Considering the church did not happen until the Book of Acts long after Jesus disappeared from the earth.

Quote:
It started in Israel when Jesus died and rose again and set up His Church in Jerusalem with the original 11 disciples


What was the name of that church? Where in the Bible is this church he created? Whats its name?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Moderator

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Exactly!

First off there's no contemporary source evidence to say that Jesus even existed in the first place, let alone the disciples. Non-contemporary source material which are considered interpolated do nothing to confirm a concrete existence, rather they provide speculation and assumption about a supernatural storyline well after the fact.

There's no evidence of Jesus in Jerusalem let alone him starting a church there.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:26 pm 
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Bast

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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
Exactly!

First off there's no contemporary source evidence to say that Jesus even existed in the first place, let alone the disciples. Non-contemporary source material which are considered interpolated do nothing to confirm a concrete existence, rather they provide speculation and assumption about a supernatural storyline well after the fact.

There's no evidence of Jesus in Jerusalem let alone him starting a church there.


I agree. The Church was started by Paul and it was not a tribute to Jesus in anyway. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but is called Jesus of Nazareth.

Quote:
Archeological evidence:

Perhaps the most important reason to suspect the accuracy of Matthew and Luke is that Bethlehem in Judea did not exist as a functioning town between 7 and 4 BCE when Jesus is believed to have been born. Archaeological studies of the town have turned up a great deal of ancient Iron Age material from 1200 to 550 BCE 7 and lots of material from the sixth century CE, but nothing from the 1st century BCE or the 1st century CE.


Quote:
"Archaeological excavations have shown that Bethlehem in Judaea likely did not exist as a functioning town between 7 and 4 B.C., when Jesus is believed to have been born.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmaswwjb.htm


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:32 am 
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Bast
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A personal point of view I think could, or should, be taken into consideration in this discussion.

Is discussion on the start of Christianity a question that have one answer?

If we look at Christianity and choose a point in time, and then follow the development towards our time something is very clear. Christianity "evolves" and separate into new branches like a growing tree. These new branches came to exist over time, but to separate and make them distinct, they are filled with stories and myths to place some kind of marker.
This is what commonly is known in marketing as Branding

Image

If we look at one well documented branch separation, Catholic and Protestant This separation is marked with Martin Luther. But the separation was a linear evolution that can be tracked back to the "Western Schism", and further on. Today these separated branches can look similar and seem like one. This is because many of the new branches of today have been better at product differenciation. Mormonism is one example to mention one.


Christian persecution could perhaps also be defined as a mark set to separate and differenciate. Religious persecution have the same linear history as religion itself. It have no start, nor end. And what is commonly known, those in power decide perspective of history. Christian persecution as term is pure branding. Victimization is the foundation of justification - Justification gives "moral" superiority. The use of this concept, and how effective it is as a mechanism of control is very easily seen in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The worlds perhaps most influential and powerful people have a moral superior right to conduct themselves beyond the limits set by the world community, justified by eternal persecution. What the people of our civilization regards as right or wrong are fluent because of this. Christian persecution gave justification used in history, Conquistadors and South America as prime example.

To define any correct start of Christianity or Christian prosecution is more or less impossible since they are a continuation of a process that started earlier, and continues to this day. One product, different brands with differenciated marketing.
Image

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Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

Hávamál


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