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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:18 am 
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I think one important thing that Acharya failed to point out that the texts she is referring to are not as old as the texts that mention the birth of Jesus and Baptism. There is no Egyptian texts prior to the fourth century ad that mentions a manger, a virgin birth, Baptism or wise men. The Egyptians who embraced Christianity rewrote the 5,000 year old texts that tells of the birth of Horus. The date of Dec 25th was taken from a Roman holiday and had nothing to do with Egypt.
I think a reworked story of the birth of Horus would have little credibility. It would mean that Egyptians in the fourth century CE "stole" from the more ancient Egyptians. That would be as detestable as Christians "stealing." from the Egyptians.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:40 am 
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jwest wrote:
I think one important thing that Acharya failed to point out that the texts she is referring to are not as old as the texts that mention the birth of Jesus and Baptism. There is no Egyptian texts prior to the fourth century ad that mentions a manger, a virgin birth, Baptism or wise men. The Egyptians who embraced Christianity rewrote the 5,000 year old texts that tells of the birth of Horus. The date of Dec 25th was taken from a Roman holiday and had nothing to do with Egypt.


So you're saying that the Christian Egyptian, would have gone and rewrote the Horus stories to make them sound more like Jesus? So then they were trying to create a situation where the Horus cult could compete against Christianity by copying it? Why would Christians want to do that? And furthermore, why would Christians want to create a situation where the Jesus story could be accused of copying the Horus myth by going back and changing the ancient Horus myth to read like the story of Jesus? You haven't put on your thinking cap very tight jwest have you, and you obviously don't understand the first thing about "The devil got there first" argument in the first place, nor it's implications.
Quote:
I think a reworked story of the birth of Horus would have little credibility. It would mean that Egyptians in the fourth century CE "stole" from the more ancient Egyptians. That would be as detestable as Christians "stealing." from the Egyptians.

The story of Horus wasn't reworked from older Egyptians, the Christian nativity was reworked from the older Horus stories and mysteries as is well provided in CiE:

Quote:
CiE P.79
"As the annual rebirth of the sun's light, the winter solstice was important in most parts of the world. ...Choosing the birth of Christ as December 25th successfully integrated long-standing popular traditions with the imagery of a new religion, and the theme is still part of Christmas."
Dr. Edwin C. Krupp, Echoes of the Ancient Skies (81)

"The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date [for Christ's Nativity]
"Christmas," Catholic Encyclopedia (III, 727)

"The symbols of the savior-child was the eye of the sun newly born every year at the winter solstice."
Dr. Bojana Mojsov, Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (13)

Quote:
P. 81
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in [the writings of the Church Father] Cyprian [200-258]..."O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born...Christ should be born."
Catholic Encyclopedia, III, 727.

Quote:
P.83-83
Ancient and Modern Voices
It has been the frequent contention of writers since antiquity that, like many other cultures, the Egyptians too celebrated the birth of the sun at the winter solstice, a logical conclusion, considering the reverence with which the sun was held held in Egypt. Concerning this cycle in Egypt, in "Isis and Osiris" (65, 378C),Plutarch remarked that Horus the Child - or "Harpocrates," his Greek name - was "born about the winter solstice, unfinished and infant-like..." (King, C.W., PM, 56. See Plutarch / Babbit, 153.) This term "Harpocrates" is a Greek word, which in the original Egyptian is "Her-pa-chruti" or "Heru-pa-Chrat," etc., meaning "the morning sun." (Budge, Mummy, (1894), 271-272.) This fact of Plutarch stating that Horus was born on "December 25th" is vitally important to keep in mind, becuse there has been much denial and censorship of it.

Adding to the highly noteworthy assertion are some fascinating remarks by Church father Epiphanius (c. 310-403 AD/CE) in his Panarion adversus Haereses (51, 22.4 - 11):

"...Christ was born on the eighth before the Ides of January, thirteen days after the winter solstice and the increase of the light and the day." Greeks, I mean the idolaters, celebrate this day on the eighth before the Kalends fo January, which Romans call Saturnalia, Egyptians Cronia, and Alexandrians, Cicellia... For this division between the signs of the zodiac, which is a solstice, comes on the eighth before the Kalends of January, and the day begins to lengthen because the light is receiving its increase...(Epiphanius / Williams, 50.)

...In this intriguing passage from Epiphanius appear two names for Egyptian winter solstice celebrations, "Cronia" and "Cicellia," both Greek terms, the latter of which is mysterious but was found also on the tablet of Canopus. (Wilkinson, J., MCAE, III 377.)

Quote:
P. 86...
Epiphanius's discussion of the Kikellia or winter solstice festival continues with him relating that the celebration took place at the large Egyptian city of Alexandria "at the so-called Virgin's shrine." (51, 22.9-10)

"First, at Alexandria, in the Coreum, as they call it; it is a very large temple, the shrine of Core. They stay up all night singing hymns to the idol with a flute accompaniment. And when they have concluded their night long vigil torchbearers descend into an underground shrine after cockcrow...and bring up a wooden image which is seated naked <on> a litter. It has a sign of the cross inlaid with gold on its forehead, two other such signs, [one] on each hand, and two other signs, [one] actually [on each of] its two knees - altogether five signs with a gold impress. And they carry the image itself seven times round the innermost shrine with flutes, tambourines and hymns, hold a feast, and take it back down to its place underground. And when you ask them what this mystery means they reply that today at this hour Core - that is, the virgin - gave birth to Aeo." (Epiphanius / Williams, 51.)

Here we find a Pagan sacred icon with a cross on its forehead, like that made by Catholic priests on the heads of Christian worshippers. We also discover this sacred image constitutes the divine son of the holy virgin within Paganism! This Pagan virgin mother was styled Core or Kore, meaning "maiden", as another name for the Greek nature goddess Persephone, who descended each year into the underworld, to return at springtime, bringing life back with her. ...Kore's son Aeo or Aion is called "the eternal," whose birth from a virgin constitutes a mystery, presumably ages prior to the common era. The fact that the virgin-birth motif represents a mystery explains why it is currently not widely known to have existed long before the purported advent of Jesus Christ and his alleged virgin birth, because evidently it was written down infrequently, and where even rarely it was memorialized, many references may have been destroyed or hidden. In this regard, it is our contention that Christianity constitutes little more than the mysteries turned inside out and broadcast openly. Moreover, the fact that there was a "very large temple" at Alexandria devoted to the worship of the virgin mother, even named after her, is indication of her worship as both widespread and ancient.

This same event of the Pagan virgin-goddess giving birth to the divine son was celebrated also by Arabs at the ancient site of Petra in Jordan, as likewise recounted by Epiphanius (51, 22.11):

"This also goes on in the city of Petra, in the idolatrous temple there. (Petra is the capital city of Arabia, the scriptural Edom.) They praise the virgin with hymns in the Arab language and call her Chaamu - that is, Core, or virgin - in Arabic. And th child who is born of her they call Dusares, that is, "only son of the Lord." And this is also done that night in the city of Elusa, as it is there in Petra, and in Alexandria." (Epiphanius / Williams 51.)

Regarding Epiphanius's account, in a chapter entitled "The Virgin Birth," Joseph Campbell writes:

"We learn from the fourth-century saint and churchman Epiphanius (ca. 315-402), for example, of an annual festival observed in Alexandria on January 6, the date assigned to the Epiphany and (originally) the Nativity of Christ, and to his Baptism as well. The pagan occasion was in celebration of the birth of the year-god Aion to the virgin goddess Kore, a Hellenized transformation of Isis." (Campbell, TMI, 34.)

The main problem with your assertion comes from the "devil got there first" of Justin Martyr. At no point was it claimed by early apologists that the pagans had copied the Christians, which would have been claimed if it were possible. Everyone knew good and well that these motif had been pagan domain for a long time before the beginning of the common era. And so the only way for apologists to account for the similarities between Paganism and Christianity was to claim that the devil had in advance to Christs arrival to try and trick the people into thinking that Christ had come already (pre-Christian times) when he really hadn't come yet. These early apologetic arguments destroy the modern apologetic attempts to try and claim that Paganism copied Christianity. They ruined it for you guys, basically.

Another point about the date of January 6 originally assigned to the Epiphany and the Nativity of Christ, and his Baptism, as Campbell is relating, is that its one of the ancient "Christmas Eve" dates from deeper antiquity, not the date of December 25th of the common era, which came later:
Quote:
Azimuth of the Sun at Sunrise:

Jerusalem 1 AD
15 December - 117° 19.938'
16 December - 117° 24.218'
17 December - 117° 27.837'
18 December - 117° 30.927'
19 December - 117° 33.390'
20 December - 117° 35.388'
21 December - 117° 36.763'
22 December - 117° 37.524'
23 December - 117° 37.695'
24 December - 117° 37.337'
(Christmas Eve)
25 December - 117° 36.381'
26 December - 117° 34.826'
27 December - 117° 32.676'
28 December - 117° 29.997'

Rome 1 AD
15 December - 121° 26.891'
16 December - 121° 31.950'
17 December - 121° 36.252'
18 December - 121° 39.870'
19 December - 121° 42.727'
20 December - 121° 44.997'
21 December - 121° 46.585'
22 December - 121° 47.415'
23 December - 121° 47.564'
24 December - 121° 47.122'
(Christmas Eve)
25 December - 121° 45.909'
26 December - 121° 44.024'
27 December - 121° 41.380'
28 December - 121° 38.139'

In the Age of Aries:

Jerusalem 2000 BC
1 January - 117° 48.932'
2 January - 117° 51.190'
3 January - 117° 52.859'
4 January - 117° 54.004'
5 January - 117° 54.554'
6 January - 117° 54.577'
(ancient "Christmas Eve")
7 January - 117° 53.940'
8 January - 117° 52.776'
9 January - 117° 51.097'
10 January - 117° 48.762'
11 January - 117° 45.896'

Calculations made with Starry Night Pro Plus v.6.2.3


Obviously, Christianity was taking these ancient pagan winter solstice festivals, some of which stuck to a very ancient date for the old "Christmas Eve" and applied it to the nativity of Christ. They were copying the date from the age of Aries which is mostly certainly a Horus related mythic motif that evolved through time into the later hellenized transformation of Isis and Horus, to things like Kore and Aion. In the end, to be astronomically correct with the current age, the Christians moved it to December 25th because that was the last night of the winter solstice and the ancient January 6 date (dating to the former age) was no longer correct. There's a variety of ways of showing how the Christians most certainly copied Pagan mythological motifs that long pre-date the common era. It isn't as easily "dismissed" as you'd like for it be.

Quote:
Thus, in Aion - the "only begotten son of God" - we posses a sun god born of a virgin who is in turn identified with the goddess Isis. Interestingly enough, as Griffiths relates, "Osiris was sometimes identified with Aion," (Redford, 307) which is fitting since Osiris's other alter ego, Dionysus, is likewise "identical" with Aion.

To summarize this very significant testimony: In Epiphanius's writings appear important details about the Alexandrian festival celebrating the winter solstice, when the days and sun's light begin to increase, and culminating with an image being carried forth of a child with a golden cross who was born at the time of a virgin! Nowhere does Epiphanius apparently attempt to claim that this widely celebrated non-Christian virgin birth at "Christmas" had been copied from Christianity, leaving us to conclude that any borrowing occurred in the opposite direction.

The pertinent parts of Epiphanius concerning the winter solstice celebrations in Egypt, with the festival at the time of the virgin Kore giving birth to Aion, as well as the same virgin-birth celebration taking place among the Arabs at Petra, are cited in the Williams translation to be in Heresy 51 at section 22.3-11. (Epiphanius / Williams 50-51) However - in a twist worthy of a mystery / thriller - in the Migne edition, which contains the "original" Greek alongside with a Latin translation, these crucial sections are entirely missing.(Migne, 927-930) In fact, the Migne text does not resume until 22.19, with a discussion of Christ's birth in the 42nd year of Augustus's reign, completely lacking all mention of Egypt, the winter solstice and the Pagan virgin birth. The Williams translation uses Holl's original Greek text found in Die griechischen christlichen Schriftstellar der ersten drei Jahrhunderte, the source of which is the Codex Marcianus, a manuscript ("MS") from the 10th century. This passage in Epiphanius can also be found in the Dindorf edition (ii, p. 482), which likewise uses the Codex Marchianus. Previously published editions and translations lacking this critical passage were evidently based on a "severly censured and bowdlerized fourteenth century MS [manuscript]." (Mead, TGH, 160.)

Hence, in the Epiphanius passage we posses a case of deliberate and egregious censorship of an ancient author's work apparently for the specific purpose of preventing information damaging to the Christian tradition from being known. We contend that there have occured many such instances of censorship concerning numerous correspondences between Christianity and pre-Christian religion, which is why, if some of these important "mysteries" were nonetheless well known in ancient times, they are not today. This particular example of textual tampering removed not only the reference to the Pagan winter-solstice celebrations in Egypt and Greece but also Epiphanius's discussion of the Pagan virgin birth associated with it. Thus, in one fell swoop references to two highly important parallels between Christianity and Egyptian religion were obliterated from the historical record. We can see from erroneous commentaries in popular publications and forums, as well as mainstream education, that the effect of such censorship has been thorough.

Fortunately, the earlier manuscript of Epiphanius survived, and we also possess the testimony of Plutarch, as well as that of the writer Macrobius in the fourth century, to verify the facts concerning the Egyptian winter-solstice festival. In hisSaturnalia (1.18:10), Macrobius likewise reported on the annual Egyptian "Christmas" celebration:

"...at the winter solstice the sun would seem to be a little child, like that which the Egyptians bring forth from a shrine on an appointed day, since the day is then at its shortest and the god is accordingly shown as a tiny infant." (Macrobius / Davies, 129)

...The increase of the light on December 25th makes sense, as that day represents the end of the solstice, which begins on the 21st/22nd. Concerning the "birthday of the Sun on 25th of December," Weinstock continues:

"In the preceeding night the Egyptians carried from a sanctuary the image of a new-born child, the Sun, and shouted that "The Virgin has born," and that the light is increasing...(Weinstock, 42.)

...as we can see, the ancient winter-solstice festival is well attested, including by yet another fairly early Christian source (Cosmas of Jerusalem or Gregory Nazianzen), complete with the virgin bringing fourth, independent of Christianity and representing the birth of the sun. Needless to say, this astrotheological point cannot be overemphasized.

As to the antiquity of the Egyptian winter-solstice, virgin - or solar birth drama depicted by Plutarch, Epiphanius and Macrobius, Professor Orlando P. Schmidt makes some interesting contentions regarding the King Amenemhet or Amenemhat I (c. 1991 / 1985-c. 1962 / 1956 BCE.), ...founder of the 12th Dynasty:

"Now, as the sun of the Sothic year reached the winter solstice in the seventeenth year of the reign of the King Amenemes I, he assumed the title of Nem-mestu, meaning "Re-born," in commemoration of his birth as Harpocrates." (Schmidt, 19.)

...Intriguingly, according to Budge the Egyptian word for winter solstice is nen, which would make a Horus name of "Nen-mestu" equivalent to "born of the winter solstice." The Egyptian word for "birth" is also transliterated as mesut and mswt (Budge, AERBB, 434. / Allen, J., ME, 103.), while Amenemhet's full Horus name was "Horus, the born again." (Renouf, Life-Work, 195).

...Indeed, if Harpocrates symbolizes the sun born again every morning - as we have seen abundantly - would he not also be the sun born in the morning of the winter solstice? To suggest otherwise would seem to be preposterous - yet another point that needs to be emphasized. It is obvious that Horus, as the morning sun born everyday, was also born on "December 25th" or the winter solstice.

The most important daily birth of "the morning sun" (Horus) is of course the end of the winter solstice when days first begin to increase once again (whenever the solstice happens to end during each world age)! And that's why these celebrations are what they are. Horus and the later hellenized versions of Isis and Horus (Kore and Aion / Virgin Mother and Son) were obviously used when Christianity eventually came onto the scene as a new religion making use of the ancient "mysteries", Shifting the esoteric to exoteric. Murdock goes into the Hieroglyphic Evidence in the next section of the book...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Thanks Tat for pointing all of that out. I was about to do the same thing, but you beat me to it. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Nice work Tat.

Enlightening wiki :shock: article about the Winter Solstice, including a good explanation of the shifting calendar date associated with this astronomical event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Thanks guys. The fact that early christianity drew the nativity from ancient winter solstice date is by all means a smoking gun. Copying older more ancient winter solstice tradition is obvious. A thanks goes out to Descartes for posting the starry night pro data. I just had to post all of this on an apologist in another forum who was using JP Holdings site to try refute pagan and christian parallels. CIE stopped him dead in his tracks - especially the censorship of Epiphanius issue.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:24 pm 
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So you're saying that the Christian Egyptian, would have gone and rewrote the Horus stories to make them sound more like Jesus? So then they were trying to create a situation where the Horus cult could compete against Christianity by copying it? Why would Christians want to do that? And furthermore, why would Christians want to create a situation where the Jesus story could be accused of copying the Horus myth by going back and changing the ancient Horus myth to read like the story of Jesus? You haven't put on your thinking cap very tight jwest have you, and you obviously don't understand the first thing about "The devil got there first" argument in the first place, nor it's implications.
Quote:

What I said was that the Christian Egyptians did not want to give up all of their pagan gods for the one Christian god. I have read all of the ancient Egyptian inscriptions that deal with Horus as well as other god and there is nothing in the original texts that mention a Baptism, a cross, three wise men or anything mother thing that did not exist in 3,000 bc.The early Egyptians that accepted Christianity rewrote the original tales of Horus.
Put on Your thinking cap. There was not such thing as Baptism in 3,000 bc. There was no concept of three wise men in 3,000 bc. The early Egyptians that accepted Christianity couldn't care less how the Jewish Christians worshiped. The Egyptian were well known for accepting other peoples gods and adding them top their long list of gods. They had Semitic gods long before the Christian era. You obviously don't understand the first thing about ancient Egyptian history in the first place, not their customs. They accepted Christianity because they had always been interested in other religions. They refused to do away with their ancient gods and instead incorporated the Christian god into a pagan religion.
It's actually rather simple. Maybe you can explain how the Christians could steal an idea from the Egyptians that the Egyptians did not have at the time.
Perhaps you have the idea that every Christian is exactly like you think they should be. The first Egyptian Christians were not the Christian of the Bible. Maybe you should try to gain a little knowledge of the history of Christianity before you insist that every early Christian though like every other early Christian.
The Egyptians were not the only ones who tried to incorporate paganism into Christianity. Put on your thinking cap and read some history.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:33 pm 
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So you've just made it clear that you haven't even read CiE yet. There is an entire chapter devoted to each of the parallels, that's the point of the book. And so you have no idea about The Christian origins content either and the Alexandrian hypothesis. You'd best to first read the book and study the content before trying to refute something you haven't even read yet.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
So you've just made it clear that you haven't even read CiE yet. There is an entire chapter devoted to each of the parallels, that's the point of the book. And so you have no idea about The Christian origins content either and the Alexandrian hypothesis. You'd best to first read the book and study the content before trying to refute something you haven't even read yet.


And You've made it clear you know even less about ancient history than the author you place so much faith in..
Let me see if I can make it simple. I have read the Tale Of Horus as well as the Tale of most Egyptian gods.
The story of the birth of Horus was written 5,000 years ago. It says nothing about a manger, three wise men,a specification,a cross or any other thing that could be associated with Christ. If You have read a Tale of Horus that includes any of those things,doesn't that tell you it is a copy? The original story about Horus says nothing about Horus having died, at all. Nothing. He was still alive until sometime after the second century CE. Doesn't that tell You the story has been rewritten? It should be a hint. I never claimed to have read anything other then the original Tale of Horus. I never said anything to lead you to think that. Regardless of what You have read, if it says anything about Horus dieing,it is a rework. If it says anything about a cross it is a rework. If it says anything about wise men it is a rework.
You seem bend on proving something that has no evidence to back it up. That is not freethinking. You are determined to prove that somebody stole something from someone who never had it at the time it was stolen. that is not logical thinking. I don't have to have read any modern author to know what ancient Egyptian texts have said. If you want to discuss the Christians stealing ideas from the Persians and Babylonians I'll agree with you. If you want to discuss Christians stealing something from the Egyptians who never heard of it until a couple of hundred years after the Bible wrote it, I will disagree.


The only thing I was refuting was what you claim was in a book. I happen to think Achalya is a very good writer. If she did not say what You claim she did, then your at fault. If she did say it then she is at fault. The information is wrong. No one can steal something that a person did not have at the time it was supposedly stolen. If what you claim is in any Egyptian texts it is not original. It has been reworked. It contains things that the Egyptians never heard of until after the time of Christ.

Before You come back and make more accusations about something you know nothing about. I do not need to read any book written by a 21st century to know what ancient texts say. I did read what you wrote. What you wrote was in error.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:42 am 
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Quote:
I do not need to read any book written by a 21st century to know what ancient texts say.

Really? So you read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, without the help of any modern book?

Quote:
Tale Of Horus as well as the Tale of most Egyptian gods.

There is no "Tale of Horus" or "Tale of most Egyptian gods." There are thousands of pages of ancient Egyptian writings that you have to go through to pull out themes that could be woven into a "tale." If you knew anything about Egyptology, you'd know that. So maybe instead of staring blankly at ancient hieroglyphs that you can't even read and then psychically figuring them out, you might actually want to study a modern text or two - maybe something written by Egyptologists who actually read Egyptian?

You're totally full of crap, jwest, and we really don't have time to waste on you. You need to find some other forum to troll. M'kay?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:12 am 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Quote:
I do not need to read any book written by a 21st century to know what ancient texts say.

Really? So you read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, without the help of any modern book?

Quote:
Tale Of Horus as well as the Tale of most Egyptian gods.

There is no "Tale of Horus" or "Tale of most Egyptian gods." There are thousands of pages of ancient Egyptian writings that you have to go through to pull out themes that could be woven into a "tale." If you knew anything about Egyptology, you'd know that. So maybe instead of staring blankly at ancient hieroglyphs that you can't even read and then psychically figuring them out, you might actually want to study a modern text or two - maybe something written by Egyptologists who actually read Egyptian?

First of all, fool pay attention. I did not say I had read any text written in Egyptian. I said I know what it says. The fact that there is not Tale of Horus should be a hint that something was fabricated. Maybe you shouldn't attempt to post while angry about your idol being picked on. Your not making any sense and cant even comprehend what you read. Maybe you should read what archeologists have written about Horus. Anything that mentions a baptism or wise men were rewritten texts to add pagan Gods to Christianity.


“…the Copts of Egypt during the early Christian centuries were known for their massive production of Apocrypha and pseudepigrapha. This characteristic of the early Copts should not be surprising to us in light of the evidence of gnostic influence on the early Coptic Christian thought. The gnostics were literate people and well acquainted with ancient religions and mythology. As Christianity was spreading in Egypt, a group of these gnostic Christians apparently made an effort to tie old Egyptian myths to Christian beliefs.”

http://sunlightenment.com/jesus-as-the- ... ris-horus/


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:15 am 
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“In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototype of the Virgin Mary and her Child.” (Budge, 48.)

…In this same regard, Dr. Reginald E. Witt provides further, archaeological evidence:

“The fusion of Horus with Judaeo-Christian features can be exemplified in Gnostic gems from Egypt….


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:17 am 
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Code:
http://creativecounterpart.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/ending-the-myths-of-horus-jesus/


Many mythicists claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. When pressed by an inquirer at her site about this claim, Acharya S said: "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD!

No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Acharya thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey.
Budge, E. Wallis


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:45 am 
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Neither is there mention of any kings of any number (Frazer, J.G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961. Also:
Code:
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Even if Zeitgeist was right about this claim, it is irrelevant because the Bible does not number the men that came to Jesus' birth, nor were they kings.

"Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world." — (McCabe, Joseph, The Story of Religious Controversy


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:31 am 
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jwest wrote:
I have read the Tale Of Horus as well as the Tale of most Egyptian gods. The story of the birth of Horus was written 5,000 years ago. It says nothing about a manger, three wise men,a specification,a cross or any other thing that could be associated with Christ.
jwest, how can you imagine that the outline of the main myth of Horus is enough to unlock the common symbolism with Christ? There is much in the Egyptian stories of Osiris, Isis and Horus that formed the mythic sources for Christianity and the archetypes for Christ, especially regarding the astrotheological narrative of the sun as symbol of God. Precisely how Egyptian ideas moved into Christianity is unclear, but parallels such as the death and rebirth of Osiris and Jesus indicate the existence in previous myth of templates of the Easter Passion of the dying and rising God-Man. The life of Christ was unrecorded except by advocates who had motive to embellish and invent, including by retention of themes from older divinities whom Jesus was intended to replace. The wealth of evidence of how the gospels rely on earlier mythology indicates the gospels are best explained as a politico-historical fictional response to unique circumstances, written by authors who were deeply familiar with both Egyptian and Jewish myth. There is no evidence for the historical Jesus. The myth of Christ makes more sense embedded in the regional cultural context of mystery and ritual, written as a believable syncretism. Christianity proved victorious partly because the myth that Jesus was real proved much easier to package to the masses than the more honest spiritual doctrines which saw the messianic heroes as allegory.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:15 am 
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jwest, the more you post the more you reveal just how unfamiliar you are with CiE, which is the topic of this thread. That's called "intellectual dishonesty". There's an entire chapter devoted to the three kings motif and what it means and an entire chapter to the Virgin Isis-Meri.
Quote:
No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Acharya thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey.
Budge, E. Wallis
Code:
http://creativecounterpart.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/ending-the-myths-of-horus-jesus/


Referring to JP Holding's site, another apologist who hasn't even read CiE and doesn't understand what he's talking about in the first before trying to refute the Egypt and Christian parallels, doesn't get you any where. You go down as Holding goes down and in both cases it's the book CiE which brings your refutation attempts down, it was specifically designed to do such.

Now it's just too coincidental that while I have this very same argument going on at book talk, with Stahrwe, an apologist making the very same claims about everything depending on Massey that you are claiming here, and using the same apologetic source (JP Holding) that you are using here, you show up here all of a sudden trying to troll this thread. All of this trouble to simply avoid actually reading the book itself and checking every source contained therein. The quotes from the book that I have already posted show very clearly that there has been a blatant effort to censor the similarities between the Egyptian and Christian religions. Budge, as it is, is quoted time and again in the Virgin Isis-Meri chapter stating very clearly that the virgin title was ancient and applied back to Neith as well. He speaks of the perpetual virgin. And he points out how the Coptic Christians were quick to associate the Virgin Mery with the more ancient Virgin Isis. And why would budge be saying this? Well because it's written into the Pyramid Texts which is covered in the book:

Quote:
"The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares:

“I am the great virgin.”


FTL has you pinned down on top of it all because you didn't even have the foresight to know that if you came here claiming to have read "the story of Horus" that there is no such a thing as one uniform story coming from any one text. There is only fragments of information spread all around which have been pieced together by Egyptologists to try and form a storyline for Horus. And of these bits of information spread around Egypt comes images such as of Horus and the 12, or Horus and Isis, Anup the Baptizer and Horus, the three figures bowing to Horus at the Nativity Scene in Luxor. In those images from a solar oriented anceint people we find clear representation of the Sun going down into the sea in the evening (baptized), The constellation Virgo which rises after midnight and which the sun rises after during the winter solstice (Virgin mother), and the three belt stars of Orion (Magi bearing three gifts) followed by Sirius (bright star in the east) which start off Christmas Eve ahead of Virgo's rising. What is being suggested is that these glyphs and pieces of information which constituted some of the ancient solar mysteries were applied to Christianity as it was being constructed by the priesthood. These little bits of info were worked into the nativity scene in Matthew:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2617&start=0

As you can see from the astronomy software, the three belt stars that mark Orion rising on the eastern horizon became the Magi bearing three gifts. Sirius became the bright star in the east which the Magi bearing three gifts follow. Virgo (Isis-Meri) became the virgin Mery. And Horus, "the morning sun", became "Jesus". The mysteries were being changed from esoteric to exoteric in all of this.
Quote:
P.83-83
Ancient and Modern Voices
It has been the frequent contention of writers since antiquity that, like many other cultures, the Egyptians too celebrated the birth of the sun at the winter solstice, a logical conclusion, considering the reverence with which the sun was held held in Egypt. Concerning this cycle in Egypt, in "Isis and Osiris" (65, 378C), Plutarch remarked that Horus the Child - or "Harpocrates," his Greek name - was "born about the winter solstice, unfinished and infant-like..." (King, C.W., PM, 56. See Plutarch / Babbit, 153.) This term "Harpocrates" is a Greek word, which in the original Egyptian is "Her-pa-chruti" or "Heru-pa-Chrat," etc., meaning "the morning sun." (Budge, Mummy, (1894), 271-272.) This fact of Plutarch stating that Horus was born on "December 25th" is vitally important to keep in mind, because there has been much denial and censorship of it.


Quote:
Revelation 22:16
"I am the Root and offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


You're entire argument - that the Egyptians copied the Christians - amounts to suggesting that the Christians were the first to understand the movements of the sun and to mythologize them into a God-Man story, at which point the Coptic Egyptians who didn't understand or have any clue about these solar symbols decided to go back and fudge their ancient myths to make them solar too after Christianity arrived, when they weren't already solar oriented to begin with. That's how ridiculous your argument turns out in the end when the astrotheological meaning of this symbolism is brought up.

Image

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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