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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Anyone out there have a clue what it is?
Because I've seen the same objection levied at the Hebrew word "almah" also levied against the Egyptian word "hwn.t"/hunet, i.e., they could both be translated as virgin OR maiden or damsel or young girl. So I was wondering how the Coptic New Testament translated the verses that contain the word "virgin" or parthenos or whatever.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Acharya would be the one to answer this, but considering Emmanuel it looks like a young maiden was conceiving Emmanuel. Then Matthew looking back at the text in Greek tries to make it pass as prophecy about a virgin birth of Jesus yet to come, with the intent of trying to attach the pagan virgin birth motif to the Jesus myth by whatever means available.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Right, I tried to look for the Isaiah passage in Coptic first, but the wiki article on Coptic bibles basically said there were only a handful of old testament manuscripts extant in Coptic and were all fragmentary, none of which included Isaiah 7. So it looks like I'm stuck with the NT.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:49 pm 
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That's too bad. It would be interesting to see how it was rendered in the Coptic text.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:51 pm 
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There are several Coptic words throughout Christ in Egypt but I didn't see a Coptic version of virgin. You may want to contact an Egyptologist with experience in Coptic for that.

Now here's a Coptic/English Lexicon:

"rooune" = virgin, virginity

That was the first lexicon I searched and it offers no explanation whatsoever. However, it looks like "rooune" may be a Coptic transliteration of the Egyptian "rnn.t" / "renen-t". You may want to check the etymology as well. Keep in mind that the Egyptians had no vowels in their writings.

I'm just flying through here but this website may be helpful in some way Ancient Near East and Egypt

Or you may (or may not) get some guidance from the "Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles" on this question.
http://www.lacopts.org
Quote:
"In Egypt, we find a similar role as that of Anat representing the virgin as well as a wetnurse: The Egyptian word renen-t or rnnt (****) means “wetnurse,”6 for one. However, changing the determinative—the symbol placed at the end of the word imparting further meaning —creates other words such as “a girl, virgin, young woman,”7 similar to the Hebrew term almah. With different determinatives, rnnt can also mean Amun8 and “the nurse-goddess.”9 That the Egyptians valued virginity is indicated also by the word “Nefrit,” nefer-t or nfrt (*****), which means “the good, or beautiful, goddess, the virgin-goddess,”10 as well as “virgin." "

Footnotes:

6 Faulkner, CDME, 150. (Gardiner’s D21, N35, N35, X1)
7 Budge, EHD, 426.
8 Budge, EHD, 426.
9 Faulkner, CDME, 151; Budge, EHD, 426.
10 Budge, EHD, 371.
11 Budge, EHD, 372.
12 Faulkner, CDME, 132. A search across many books dealing with Egyptian hieroglyphs, including dictionaries, reveals a trend avoiding reference to the term “virgin,” which nevertheless existed in the Egyptian language. Indeed, there is little doubt that what Faulkner defines as “fair woman” refers to a virgin. Considering the importance of virginity to Egyptians, it seems curious that this word is so difficult to find in the dictionaries. It is possible this trend is based on religious sensitivities raised earlier when previous scholars such as Budge were more forthright regarding this terminology, which treads too near Christian doctrine. For the same reason, it seems, the phrase “virgin birth” is avoided and “parthenogenesis” substituted in its place."

- Christ in Egypt, page 142

* There are hieroglyphs in the (*****) however, I don't have those fonts on my pc so I can't post them properly at this time.

It's vital to understand that different determinatives (symbols at the end) give different meanings to words.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Thanks Free for the link about rooune.

I managed to find a Bohairic version of the bible- http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/wb/cop/mat.htm

It appears that Matthew and Luke do in fact use parthenos.

So now I just need to see if the same is the case in Sahidic.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Yep, Sahidic uses parthenos as well-http://copticlibrary.t35.com/bible/copticnthorner/horners2/10.htm.

Damn. All I really want is to just see how the Greeks translated hwn.t! Is that too much to ask?


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