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 Post subject: Sky-Religions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Jesus

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:09 pm
Posts: 18
I want to raise a debate between astrotheological and somewhat literal interpretation of the religious and mythical texts, emphasizing bible at first. I found these sites controversial and interesting http://www.usbible.com/Astrology/gospel_zodiac.htm + http://kingdavid8.com/_full_article.php ... 2c306f9bbb I'm researching this topic for myself.

First about the research methods and general dilemma

King David offers 1000$ for a person, that can prove that the story of Jesus was a copycat. My first thought about the challenge was that its impossible to win for many reasons. I read the discussion about Horus-Christ comparison which goes far to the original texts and hieroglyphs. One should be a linguistic, religion and archaeology expert to fully discuss on that level and at least on my side I need to trust on second hand resources. Very fundamental problem of every history or even science related topic. It might take tens of years to fully deepen knowledge of the old spoken and written languages, was it Egyptian, Greek, Hebrew or Sanskrit for example. So it is really impractical and impossible to go that far on research.

Same applies to the studies of the bible. Of course there is much more consensus about the translations and much more resources one can use, so stories in the bible might seem to be vulnerable for less interpretation that other older religious stories and myths. But nevertheless I need to trust on second hand translations of the texts, even if I use comparative original text lexicon like: http://bible.cc/

But I like the idea of tracing resources, no matter how questionable they are and make them clear for comparison. I'm interested to trace back stories of the supposed Sun-Gods as far as possible. My preliminary assumption is, that there wont be many dating back before common era. They didn't have such concept as comparative religion or myth research as we have today. They may have still been generating myths and legends actually! So best I can expect is to trace resources for some hundred years back and of course make own insights and theories of the told stories.

Second thought was about Sun -legends again in general. It seems that none of the stories are that much similar, that they can be traced without questions to the other legend. One needs to make assumptions based on general sense which is always debatable. So to make a link between myths and stories one needs to generalize them, which requires loosing the literal context and trying to find archetypes of the stories. That's basics of the myth research I think. But again, its very vulnerable for debates. We don't have original writers of the gospels here to examine, we don't have any of their thinking and writing process documented, we can only assume things based on the texts. Even the literal interpretation requires that assumption.

Which brings me to the next point, ie. to some questions I'm trying to find answers before stepping any further to the hypothesis of Christ-Sun / Gospel-Zodiac connection:

1) Could all evidences of the common knowledge of ancient times and beginning of Christian era together suggest, that they were well aware of the solar, night sky and zodiac behaviour as well as myths related to the figures of the zodiac? If they were, then its at least possible that bible writers could have used solar myth on basis of the stories of the gospels. Sure, even it was possible it doesn't mean they used, but its a good start I think.

2) When did they start counting time and predicting days as for seasons? It seems evident that it happened thousands years before Christ. Counting time was based on observing sky, sun, moon and stars OR observing nature and later on water clocks. I think on northern semi sphere its easier to predict seasons just by following average temperature changes, but nearer to equator I suppose it was harder so sky came more important. I also assume calculating time ie. rotation of the stars and planets was main interest for religious purposes.

3) When zodiac was created and where? Are there independent but similar division of the nights sky on other cultures, far east and America? What was Zodiac created and used for?

4) How much did they really use parallels on bible, both writers and Jesus? Paul at least was interpreting old testament by analogies and sees parallels of the story of the Christ and Adam for example. There are different stories by details, but has a link between. Could there be such links between Christ and other myths even they aren't really based on same story or exactly copied? If parallel is found, what could it mean? If they used zodiac on the basis of the stories, why it had to be hidden on parallel stories?

5) Little apart from the center of the topic, but still related to time and accuracy: why writers of the gospels didn't date their writings? didn't they use seals and ratings along with signatures even they considered time measuring and ages so important?

6) What are the main events of the Jesus ministry that could be treated like a myth rather than historical story? Apparently moral and ethical teachings cant be interpreted as myths. Just the frame of the happenings at max.

7) When did the first connection between zodiac and bible stories pop to the history documents? That could reveal a lot.

So there are few things I'm researching and I hope you can put some insights between the lines you see some sense and helpful. At this point I'm trying to make a reasonable compromise between self-thinking and quotes / citates of the other texts.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky-Religions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:24 pm
Posts: 4525
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Welcome to the party, markoman.

We've got it covered here:

Jesus & Horus Parallels and KingDavid8.com Exposed

KingDavid8 has never intended to pay up from the onset. He's a Christian apologist out to shore up his faith at all costs. He has dismissed and denied credible evidence for 8 years now since he created his website 8 years ago. He has never read a single book by mythicists even to this very day.

markoman wrote:
I'm interested to trace back stories of the supposed Sun-Gods as far as possible. My preliminary assumption is, that there wont be many dating back before common era.

You're at the right place, markoman. The work by Acharya S explains the history of mythicism as well as tracing astrotheological religious concepts as far as as possible, which is well over 30,000 years ago.

Astrotheology of the Ancients

You can see a brief basic explanation of this via the 25 minute Zeitgeist part 1 video:

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence

Also, you might appreciate the mythicist position video



1) Yes indeed. We have a mountain of evidence that suggests that's what happened. The book of Job, one of the oldest books in the bible, mentions the zodiac at Job 38:32, where the author refers to the "Mazzaroth" = zodiac.

The Mazzaroth (Zodiac)

That should answer your 7 as well.

Quote:
2) When did they start counting time and predicting days as for seasons?

There were calendars of some sort possibly as far back as 75,000 years ago.

3) There are similar varieties of zodiacs that vary in part due to different environments and time periods. We aren't sure exactly when and where the very first zodiac was created because it's probably either destroyed or still buried in the ground.

Indian Astrotheology and the Vedic Origins of the Zodiac

We do have several threads on the zodiac around the forum here. You can search around for them and if I get time maybe I'll try to gather them and post into one thread for convenience.

4) We have discussions on that all over the forum. You'll just have to search around and/or bring specific things up.

Quote:
5) Little apart from the center of the topic, but still related to time and accuracy: why writers of the gospels didn't date their writings? didn't they use seals and ratings along with signatures even they considered time measuring and ages so important?

That's another great question. There may have actually been dates and actual author names and more in the originals which may have been removed either for alternate purposes (fraud) or perhaps we actually do already have the originals (or fragments) from the mid to late 2nd century. There exists no credible evidence that the gospels as we know them today existed prior to that time. There's no credible evidence that Mark, Matthew, Luke or John actually wrote them or that they ever existed. There's no credible evidence that Jesus ever existed. It is highly possible that the bible is all myth.

6) There's almost nothing Jesus said or did that was original. They simply Judaized it or Christianized previous deeds and sayings.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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 Post subject: Re: Sky-Religions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:18 am 
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Jesus

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:09 pm
Posts: 18
Great! And thanks for putting those link on the table. I also realized there is a lot of information on this forum, that will give answers to the questions I asked. So I need to dig deeper and get back.

More you read, it really seems evident, that Sky/Heaven, signs above, mythical monsters and almost everything had apparent link to joined dots in the sky. Why they came so important? Do you think its natural evolution, combination of survival skills and curiosity, animal instincts, fears and hopes, also neural ability to find patterns from the world, not only nature, but nightly sky?

I'm also challenged why ethical teachings were mixed with mythology, was it just because high priest hierarchy wanted to keep society in control and harmony which is good for everyone?

What comes to New Testament, while Gospels and Revelation are relatively easy to be interpreted by astrotheology, what do you guys have to say about Pauls and other letters plus Acts of Apostles in Bible? At first they seem to contradict with the theory having more historical and actual event touch on the writings.

Philo wrote about zodiac and 12 tribes maybe just before dawn of christian doctrine, because he didn't mention Jesus and disciplines on his book ON FLIGHT AND FINDING: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text ... ook19.html

Quote:
and twelve is the perfect number, of which the circle of the zodiac in the heaven is a witness, studded as it is with such numbers of brilliant constellations. The periodical revolution of the sun is another witness, for he accomplishes his circle in twelve months, and men also reckon the hours of the day and of the night as equal in number to the months of the year, (185) and the passages are not few in which Moses celebrates this number, describing the twelve tribes of his nation, appointing by law the offering of the twelve cakes of shewbread, and ordering twelve stones, on which inscriptions are engraved, to be woven into the sacred robe of the garment, reaching down to the feet of the high-priest, on his oracular dress.


One intriguing document I read years ago was from Bahai scholar. If you haven't seen it, it might be worth of looking: http://bahai-library.org/books/apocalypse/index.html It seems persians had this zodiacal interpretation of the bible in 1800's.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky-Religions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:37 am 
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Jesus

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:09 pm
Posts: 18
Oh, forgot to mention this:

"He has never read a single book by mythicists even to this very day."

What I've been following debates on any field concerning science, history and religion at least, there are certain patterns to be seen, again in format of questions:

1) who's taking the hard working role of researching and interpreting and who's taking the role of criticizing -> throwing the ball
2) who has the duty of proving -> positive and negative proof
3) what is the difference between truth, fact, proof and evidence -> hypothesis
4) how to be objective beyond initial beliefs, assumptions and preliminary mental constructions -> motives of researchers

I've also seen these topics raising one after other:

a) doubts about originality of the sources, which also relates to:
b) translation and interpretation of the ancient texts

And finally but not the least:

c) missing the point, conversations going to personal insults

To be able to talk genuine at all we are probably forced to have a theory and some framework, was it based on religions, science or combination. But at the same time it also gives controversy because there are so many theories that can be twisted all around back and forth no one really having to be responsible, because theories are mostly mental having just little effect to immediate world around.

But in larger scale these theories and beliefs has had tremendous effects on human history, thats why I think all efforts made on this sector are important.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Jesus

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:09 pm
Posts: 18
D wrote:
The problem with David and other "debunkers" is that they expect a mirror image of these similarities and don't realize that these myths and motifs evolved over a period of two thousand years and across several cultures. If they say "prove Osiris was crucified," they have a predetermained expectation of what's being referred to, and in their obstinance fail to understand what is actually being said. Essentially they want someone to prove their mischaracterizations and misunderstandings about this.

Where is the myth in the world, that correlates with the whole scene? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV Its a pretty detailed story!

What is the central part of the alleged myth? Innocent savior sentenced and killed in regard of all human kind carrying all the sins of it? Or is it the miracle that happens when He resurrects from death? And what is the meaning of three men crucified on the hills on the myth? Is the cross in the central part of the image?

Compare it for example to the death of Krishna, how much similarity we can see on this episode: http://www.indianetzone.com/38/death_lord_krishna.htm

"Death of Lord Krishna occurred accidentally by the arrow of a hunter named Jara. According to Mahabharata, Jara perceived Krishna as a deer and shot an arrow to the left leg that wounded him."

Maybe the name of Krishna and the wound on a leg are the most striking similarities, but overall the scene is very far from being identical at least on my eyes.

I mean its a huge combination of supposedly mythical items on the death of Jesus thats involved with the story and I'm afraid its not going to be very easy to provide similar scene fulfilling but just few of the details. Or if it is, I'm largely surprised. Anyway I'm very interested to see how challenge is going on. I hope rules are clear for all parties, concepts and definitions, but since you've been arguing with the topic several years, I'm sure they are clear.


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