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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Precession of the Moon and Christian Theology

A scientific argument for Saint Paul's theory of law and grace indicates correlation with ancient observation of the precession of the Easter Moon as the original source for this Christian doctrine.

Precession of the equinoxes can be seen over generational timespans by observation of the position of the full moon against the background stars against the markers of the seasons. Occurring at the very slow rate of one degree of arc per human lifetime (71.6 years), precession is undetectable in its effect on the perceived position of the sun and moon except through systematic measurement over generations. Ancient cultures had strong motive for such measurement, as the position of the moon against the stars was used to date festivals. The moon moves about 12 degrees of arc per day. It is full when it is directly opposite the sun, rising at dusk and coursing across the sky through the night, in the constellation directly opposite the sun. The position of the sun cannot be seen directly against the background stars. However, for both ancient and modern observers, the ecliptic zodiac position of the full moon is easily seen at night, providing both a ready confirmation of calendar dating and, with its gradual shift over the centuries, the most obvious marker of precession. To direct viewing, the full moon is within 5° of exact opposition to the sun. This observational error still puts the full moon within an expected constellation (30° of arc). The margin of error for direct observation is small compared to the accuracy of ancient records of lunisolar calendars which must have noted the full moons marking each season were no longer in their traditional stars.

In ancient Israel the Passover festival was celebrated in spring, at the 14th day of the month of Nisan on the night of the Paschal Full Moon after the northern vernal equinox. Before the Common Era, the full moon on this date was in the constellation of Libra, and the sun was directly opposite, in the constellation of Aries. However, as the equinoxes precessed, the stars at Passover shifted, so that in the Common Era the festival occurred when the full moon was in the constellation of Virgo, meaning the sun was then in the opposite sign of Pisces. Passover dating is basically the same as for Easter. Now, two thousand years later, the full moon at Easter has precessed through Virgo and is nearly at the beginning of the constellation. The Easter moon will precess into Leo over the next centuries, as the Easter sun precesses from Pisces into Aquarius.

The movement of the lunisolar axis at Easter presents a strong and direct astrological correlation to core Christian ideas. The shift of the Easter Moon from Libra to Virgo directly matches Paul's statement in Romans 6:14 ”you are not under law but under grace.” The shift, from the point of view of ancient astrology, was from a Passover held when the moon was full in the sign of the law, Libra, with its ancient symbol of the scales of justice, to a Passover held under the Virgo moon, whose symbolism of grace is reflected in the prayer to the virgin, Hail Mary Full of Grace.

Long Mosaic tradition, through its use of a lunisolar calendar, would have associated Passover with the Sun in Aries and Moon in Libra, with all the symbolic meaning of that axis. The placement of jewels symbolising the twelve signs of the zodiac on the breast plate of the Jewish High Priest, as attested by Josephus and Philo, indicates that this observational framework was important for early Judaism, even if it has been suppressed and forgotten in times since. The new age at the dawn of the Common Era occurred as the Passover was shifting to a new lunisolar axis of Virgo and Pisces, zodiac signs that are traditionally symbolised by loaves and fishes and by the themes of grace and belief. The shift occurring now is to an Easter axis of Sun in Aquarius and Moon in Leo, suggesting just in speculative astrological terms that knowledge and will, the respective thematic meanings associated with Aquarius and Leo, are replacing belief and grace, the themes of Pisces and Virgo, as organising cultural principles in the zeitgeist or spirit of the age.

The observation of the stellar shift of the Passover moon, and the widespread ancient knowledge of observational astronomy and astrology, suggests that knowledge of precession was more widespread in the ancient world than is textually attested. The absence of this idea from theology and history is a big problem, and can only be explained if it was kept as a closely guarded secret within ancient esoteric mystery religions, and was successfully targeted by the church for suppression. The esoteric knowledge of precession can be shown by its use throughout the New Testament as a concealed symbolic template. Examples include Jesus Christ as alpha and omega marking the movement of the equinox point from Aries to Pisces, the loaves and fishes as symbolising Virgo and Pisces as a new axis of cosmic abundance, the twelve jewels of the holy city of Revelation as the twelve signs of the zodiac in reverse from Pisces to Aries, the handing of power, seat and authority from the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard as the precession of the North Celestial Pole from Draco to Ursa Minor, and this example of Paul’s theme of the new age as marked by grace replacing law. Suppression of precessional knowledge is shown in the debates over heresy, for example with Irenaeus condemning the idea that there are twelve ages, and Clement's rejection of the Valentinian Gnostic discussion of the twelve apostles symbolising the twelve signs of the zodiac.

Through the 2000 years before Christ, the sun after the spring equinox moved through the constellation of Aries, and the full moon for that month was in Libra. The date of Passover was calculated partly by the growth of crops, with an intercalary month added if the barley was not ripe. Observation of the stellar position of the full moon in Libra provided astronomical confirmation of the choice of month for the Passover. This was no longer the case after Christ, because the Easter full moon now occurred in the constellation of Virgo. Astronomers responsible for setting the date of Passover must have noted well before the time of Christ that the traditional observation of the paschal moon in Libra was moving out of alignment.

This popular cultural application of precession as visible in the position of the full moon against the seasons for festivals suggests that the traditional attribution of the discovery of precession to Hipparchus in the second century BC fails to recognise the likelihood of broader knowledge of this phenomenon. While Hipparchus brought the scientific astronomy of precession to a Greek audience, he used Babylonian sources that were very old. Use of the moon to indicate knowledge of precession is an area of culture that is not well documented. Natural cosmology was confined to secrecy and was subject to repression by the church, who preferred a supernatural miraculous account of the origins of their dogma. As a deductive conclusion, awareness of the visible heavens in the ancient world suggests observation of precession of the moon is the source for the Christian ideas on law and grace as marking the shift of the ages.

Observation of the moon was important for ancient timekeeping. Indicators include the widespread use of lunar calendars seen in the link between the words moon and month, detection of the nineteen year Metonic Cycle of the sun and moon in Babylon before the 5th century BC, and the apparent lunar features of observatories such as Stonehenge. The Metonic Cycle means the timing of full moons in each month of successive years varies, but was quite predictable in ancient times, including as to whether the full moon would be early or late in its matching constellation/month. The position of the moon against the stars had old continuous records for which precession provided a simple and obvious explanation.

Dating of the tropical signs of astrology uses the equinox point as its reference, which has shifted against the stars due to precession. The full moon on 1 August 2012 was visible in the stars of Capricorn. Tropically, the sun on 1 August is always at 10° Leo. This August the moon reached full at 10° tropical Aquarius, equivalent to 12° sidereal Capricorn assuming equal constellation arcs. This gap between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs is due to the 28° of precession over the last 2000 years. One thousand years before Christ a full moon on August 1 would have appeared at about 25° Aquarius. Over the centuries a full moon on 1 August would appear steadily earlier in Aquarius, until at the purported time of Christ it occurred at 10° Aquarius, when the signs and seasons were exactly aligned. The move towards this alignment of seasons and signs would have been observed by astronomers in countries which maintained good records, such as Babylon, Israel, Greece and Egypt.

Evidence of knowledge of precession before Hipparchus includes Plato and Ezekiel. Plato wrote at Timaeus 39: “a month is created by the revolution of the moon, a year by that of the sun. Other periods of wonderful length and complexity are not observed by men in general; there is moreover a cycle or perfect year at the completion of which they all meet and coincide.” Despite his apparent error that the planets all meet at the end of a perfect year, Plato is pointing out that astronomers are aware of longer cycles than the year, of which the primary one is precession. Ezekiel 1:19 states "When the living creatures [ie the constellations of the zodiac] moved, the wheels beside them [ie the circle of the galaxy] moved." Ezekiel was familiar with Babylonian astronomy, and this passage can readily be read as allegory for knowledge of astronomical observation of the 'wheels within wheels' seen in precession, with the slow movement of the equinox around the ecliptic most readily seen by the position of the full moon each month.

The ancients described each full moon by its stellar position. Their astronomy was based on direct observation of the sky at night, tabulated in records over generations for calendar purposes. For festivals they required accuracy to the level of the date when the full moon could be seen. This long continual recorded observation enabled them to know the movement of the moon and planets, complex patterns such as the Metonic cycle, and precession. Their knowledge of the location of the full moon only had to be accurate to within a day, not the exact moment of opposition to the sun. Each month the full moon is seen 29 degrees of arc after its position in the previous month, a shift nearly one full zodiac sign of 30 degrees. The visible circle of the full moon at the end of the second week of waxing is up to about five degrees of arc away from the actual opposition point. But the ancients had long records, long enough to see the Metonic cycle of 19 years. Lunisolar calendar methods referencing the constellations of the zodiac would have shown them that the predicted position of the moon was precessing against the stars. The moon can be seen against the background stars whereas the sun cannot, so the stellar position of the full moon provides a simple observable marker of precession, as long as observers have a reason to compare the observed position with a calendar record.

The Wikipedia lunisolar calendar article states "The Hebrew, Buddhist, Hindu lunisolar, Burmese, and Tibetan calendars, as well as the traditional Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mongolian, and Korean calendars, plus the ancient Hellenic, Coligny, and Babylonian calendars are all lunisolar. Also some of the ancient pre-Islamic calendars in South Arabia followed a lunisolar system. The Chinese, Coligny and Hebrew lunisolar calendars track more or less the tropical year whereas the Buddhist and Hindu lunisolar calendars track the sidereal year. Therefore, the first three give an idea of the seasons whereas the last two give an idea of the position among the constellations of the full moon."

For purpose of dating, the position of the moon against the stars is therefore key to ancient calendars, with the Buddhist and Hindu calendars known to be explicitly based on position against the stars. Using such a calendar over generations, the predicted position against the stars will rapidly become wrong, at a steady rate driven mainly by precession of the equinoxes. Although the exact moment of fullness could not be observed except by mathematical calculation from the position of the sun, the time period of these observations was very long, enough for the growing discrepancy in the position of the moon to be readily noticeable for people who used it for their calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar#History states that for the Hindu calendar "The shift in the vernal equinox by nearly four months from agrahaayana to chaitra in sidereal terms seems to indicate that the original naming conventions may date to the fourth or fifth millennium BCE." This indicates very old Indian use of astronomy for the calendar, providing clear knowledge that the moon had shifted its seasonal position against the stars.

The correlation between the movement of the Easter moon due to precession and Paul’s core idea of the new age as a shift from law to grace indicates that his theology was grounded in an accurate cosmology. Christianity has systematically denied this basis of its theology in astronomical observation in favour of an alienated supernatural magical tradition. Placing Paul's thought within the real natural context of ancient cosmology helps to prove the Gnostic roots of Christian dogma as an accurate scientific theory within the prevalent ancient astrological framework of the shift of the ages. Placing the dogma within its cosmological context also shows the real mythic identity of Jesus Christ as a symbolic representation of this natural observation of the slow movement of the heavens, from an old age of law to a new age of grace.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Yes, and with Paul before the gospels it seems fairly evident that the gospel writers were merely expanding on an astrotheological allegory started already by the time of Paul. In this respect, the loaves and fishes allegory is specifically playing off of Paul's Law to Grace observation - moon in Libra to moon in Virgo. Very interesting piece to add to the Jesus Puzzle.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:53 pm 
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A good explanation of how Hipparchus observed the precession of the moon to (re-)discover precession of the equinox is by Josée Sert from the website of the European Association for Astronomy Education.
Quote:
IV.HIPPARCHUS AND THE PRECESSION OF EQUINOXES
1.To get co-ordinates of stars, Hipparchus made observations during moon eclipses just as his predecessors did, and he compared his results with those of Timocharis about 150 years before concerning Spica, a bright star near the ecliptic [in Virgo]. During moon eclipses, it was easy to measure the distance between Spica and the centre of the Moon, and then, as the Sun is at exactly 180° from the Moon, to get the difference of longitude between the Sun and Spica. Especially if the eclipse happened near the equinox, the position of the Sun was precisely known, and the longitude of Spica could so be deduced precisely. Timocharis had found for Spica a distance of 8° before the Autumn equinoctial point. Hipparchus got 6°. The longitude of Spica had increased by 2°.


This information suggests that Hipparchus found a stellar movement of 2° in 150 years, ie 75 years per degree, whereas Ptolemy claimed Hipparchus had made a far less accurate estimate of at least one degree per century.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Nice. Maybe we should work the whole thing out here since precession is such a sensitive issue to anti-astrotheologists and general skeptics of astrotheological ties to Christian origins.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:41 am 
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Lists of Lunar Eclipses are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1s ... r_eclipses

Hipparchus would have observed the total eclipse of the moon at the spring equinox on March 21, 134 BC, as per diagram below. The observed position of the moon at the eclipse was on the autumn equinox point right next to Spica in Virgo (opposite the spring equinox point) enabling naked eye estimation of the distance between Spica and the equinox to within degree level accuracy, given that the moon is half a degree of arc, enabling direct calculation of precession. The white zone on the chart, Africa and Europe, is where the total eclipse was visible.
Image

For cosmic seers watching the precession, the total eclipse on 23 March 4 BC visible in the Middle East also occurred right next to Spica.
Image
And the penumbral eclipse on 18 September 23 AD was right next to the first fish of Pisces at the equinox point.
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:37 pm 
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This is precisely the type of scientific investigation needed to demonstrate the obvious. No one can rightfully claim that early through late first century astronomer priests organizing their religious festivals according to the moon and stars did not, or could not observe a shift from the traditional Aries constellation to Pisces. Or that Hipparchus in the 2nd century BCE did not know what was happening in the sky and that specific zodiacal constellation changes at the equinoxes were well under way.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:09 pm 
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I posted this in the other thread but, I'm not sure if anybody caught it. We now know that astronomer Aristarchus of Samos discovered precession over a century before Hipparchus. We need a serious investigative study on this because there may be clues to track it back even further.

Quote:
Dennis Rawlins, American astronomer, historian, and publisher.

"Recognizing in two ancient lists of year lengths the oldest surviving data in continued fraction form, Rawlins proposed that these indicate that ca. 280 B. C. E., heliocentrist astronomer Aristarchus of Samos discovered precession over a century before Hipparchus, deriving the same faulty 1° per century estimate later adopted by the heretofore-accepted discoverer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ra ... _astronomy

Quote:
"It is generally presumed that Aristarchos worked in Alexandria. (Note that a pre-Eratosthenes map of Egypt in spherical coordinates was probably from around the era of the school of Aristarchos and its Dionysios Calendar.)"
http://www.dioi.org/fff.htm#dpgc

Aristarchus of Samos (310 BC – ca. 230 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos

Hipparchus (c. 190 BC – c. 120 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus

Precession of The Equinox & Greek Mythology


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:41 pm 
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^I saw it, but his 1 degree in a century estimate moves away from the 1 degree in 75 year calculation of Hipparchus which we were focusing in on with this thread and the other. So I consciously left it alone for the time being.

I'm not sure if Hipparchus's alternative theory about a 1 degree in a century - quoted by Ptolemy - has to do with Hipparchus contemplating Aristarchus's earlier ideas or not, but that's the figure that stuck after Ptolemy instead of the measurements Hipparchus made of Spica which render the 1 degree in 75 year estimate for precession. Since the point was to show that at least some 1st century people would have been aware of a nearly 2,600 year precession cycle we were more concerned with Hipparchus in this instance.

But certainly a scientific investigation has to consider that Aristarchus had a 1 degree in a century precession in the 3rd century BCE and Hipparchus had a 1 degree in 75 year precession and alternative 1 degree in a century precession on the table by the second century BCE. So there were at least two ways of estimating it by the time of the 1st century CE from the most conservative angle.

And the Greek Golden through Iron ages of ascent and descent (mentioned in the video) lay out the idea of a Great Year informing greek mythology, therefore the Greek astronomers who were working on precession calculations. And how much of that passed down to Greeks in Alexandria from ancient Egyptian knowledge? With the Sphinx starring down the former vernal age of Leo it seems worth asking whether the changing zodiac signs @ the equinoxes were known well before the Greeks ever got into it? And how much of the Vedic Yuga's were documented in Alexandria during the lives of Aristarchus and Hipparchus? There's a lot to sort through.

And certainly any solid leads will have to come into consideration concerning the Astrotheology 101 course: http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... =21&t=4313

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Here are two sky maps of the total lunar eclipse seen from Jerusalem at the Passover Festival on 23 March 4 BC, a date conventionally linked to the birth of Christ. Note that the dates recorded in the diagrams are 5 BC because the SkyGazer 4.5 astronomical software does not accept the traditional Christian stupidity of not having a year zero which meant there were only traditionally nine years in the decade stretching across the conventional dawn of our era.

What we see here is that the eclipse occurred 1.5 degrees of arc away from the equinox point, readily calculable from ancient knowledge of the diameter of the moon and the date of the equinox, providing a clear visible indicator of the location of the equinoctial point.

The importance of the lunar eclipse, as compared to a normal full moon, is that the observed eclipse point is always exactly opposite the sun, to within a degree, whereas the moon appears full across several degrees of arc.

What we also see, and here the precessional content is extremely interesting, is that this eclipse occurs well inside the constellation of Virgo, whereas the Passover Full Moon had traditionally occurred in the constellation of Libra, as Philo attests. So, instead of the tradition that Passover happened with sun in Aries and moon in Libra, we find here a total eclipse at the equinox visible to everyone in the Roman Empire and Asia, but with the equinox visibly in Virgo, not Libra. This may well have been perceived as a religiously disturbing event, providing definitive visible proof of the shift to a new age. No wonder 4BC is associated with the mythical birth of Jesus Christ.
Attachment:
Lunar Eclipse in Virgo at Equinox 5 BC.gif
Lunar Eclipse in Virgo at Equinox 5 BC.gif [ 130.14 KiB | Viewed 1341 times ]


Attachment:
Lunar Eclipse at Equinox 5 BC.gif
Lunar Eclipse at Equinox 5 BC.gif [ 82.16 KiB | Viewed 1341 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:33 am 
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Tat,

On the one degree precession every 75 years, has Hipparchus defined what is an 'year'? In my opinion, this figure is not all that off the mark if you consider the lunar year which is what the Hindus have always considered in their day to day usage. Traditionally the Hindu calendar recognizes that 63 lunar months will be equal to 60 solar months. On this calculation, 75 lunar years would be equal to 71.428571428571..... (the 6 decimal figures repeat) solar years, which is quite an accurate figure. If you see the standard span of a Manu also, you get the same number. One day of Brahma consisting of 1000 chaturyugas is presided over by 14 Manu's, which time is called a Manvantara. This gives each Manu a time span of 1000/14 yugas, which is again 71.428571428571.

Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
^I saw it, but his 1 degree in a century estimate moves away from the 1 degree in 75 year calculation of Hipparchus which we were focusing in on with this thread and the other. So I consciously left it alone for the time being.

I'm not sure if Hipparchus's alternative theory about a 1 degree in a century - quoted by Ptolemy - has to do with Hipparchus contemplating Aristarchus's earlier ideas or not, but that's the figure that stuck after Ptolemy instead of the measurements Hipparchus made of Spica which render the 1 degree in 75 year estimate for precession. Since the point was to show that at least some 1st century people would have been aware of a nearly 2,600 year precession cycle we were more concerned with Hipparchus in this instance.

But certainly a scientific investigation has to consider that Aristarchus had a 1 degree in a century precession in the 3rd century BCE and Hipparchus had a 1 degree in 75 year precession and alternative 1 degree in a century precession on the table by the second century BCE. So there were at least two ways of estimating it by the time of the 1st century CE from the most conservative angle.

And the Greek Golden through Iron ages of ascent and descent (mentioned in the video) lay out the idea of a Great Year informing greek mythology, therefore the Greek astronomers who were working on precession calculations. And how much of that passed down to Greeks in Alexandria from ancient Egyptian knowledge? With the Sphinx starring down the former vernal age of Leo it seems worth asking whether the changing zodiac signs @ the equinoxes were known well before the Greeks ever got into it? And how much of the Vedic Yuga's were documented in Alexandria during the lives of Aristarchus and Hipparchus? There's a lot to sort through.

And certainly any solid leads will have to come into consideration concerning the Astrotheology 101 course: http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... =21&t=4313

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:43 am 
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balu wrote:
the lunar year which is what the Hindus have always considered in their day to day usage.

Balu, I think you are starting from a mystical religious perspective which is not helpful in analysing Hipparchus. I do not believe your claim that Hindus consider twelve lunar months as a year. A year is basically solar, governed by the seasons. The vague year, whether 354, 360 or 365 days, is merely calendrical, not real.

We should assume that for Hipparchus a year is a solar year, so the 150 years movement of Spica by two degrees he described refers to solar years. This is important in indicating Hipparchus had a more accurate understanding of precession than is attributed to him by Ptolemy, who asserted that Hipparchus said the Great Year was 36,000 years in length. Hipparchus' observation of 75 years per degree suggests a reasonably accurate Great Year of 27,000 years duration. Modern science says the Great Year is 25,765 years long. The Platonic year convention of 25920 years derives from sacred geometry, and I have not heard what its oldest proven example is.

Trying to say Hipparchus had an even more accurate understanding of precession as 71.6 years in lunar terms introduces a speculative dimension for which there is no basis. Hipparchus apparently based his estimate of precession on observation of the moon, empirically calculating the gap between where Babylonian records located the moon at equinox eclipses and where he saw it himself.

It may be that Vedic sages had a more accurate knowledge in antedeluvian times, but that is a speculative question that we lack the evidence to resolve.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:23 am 
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I'm pretty sure that Hipparchus was referring to solar years because it was based on comparing measurements between astronomers over a 150 year gap which reveals a 2 degree precession. Interesting question though.

Quote:
In his book In Search of Ancient Astronomies (33), astronomer Dr. E.C. Krupp, former director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles, concurs:

"The earliest known direct reference to precession is that of the Greek astronomer Hipparchus (second century B.C.), who is credited with discovering it. Adjustments of the Egyptian temple alignments, pointed out by Sir Norman Lockyer, may well indicate a much earlier sensitivity to this phenomenon, however."

Again, Krupp says (218):

"Circumstantial evidence implies that the awareness of the shifting equinoxes may be of considerable antiquity, for we find, in Egypt at least, a succession of cults whose iconography and interest focus on duality, the bull, and the ram at appropriate periods for Gemini, Taurus, and Aries in the precessional cycle of the equinoxes."


Not to mention the Sphinx oriented to the vernal age of Leo. Whether they built it to calculate back to a remote period and commemorate it, or whether it was built during that remote period seems uncertain. I'd like to get deeper into what Krupp is saying about the circumstantial evidence of an awareness in Egypt of the shifting equinoxes from Gemini, Taurus, and Aries because that sensitivity leads down into the common era with the shift into Pisces. And I wonder if these Alexandrian Greeks understood the movement of precession of the equinoxes but sought to accurately measure and define it, eventually taking credit for it's discovery.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:35 am 
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Robert,

I am sorry, I don't understand you.

While what I said may or may not be useful for analysing the observations of Hipparchus, there is nothing to believe or disbelieve the 12 lunar months year of the Hindus. It is a fact. I can assure you that in Hindu calendar an year of 12 lunar months is very much in practice even to this date. This method is extremely useful in day to day life irrespective of anybody's beliefs. The additional lunar month once in 2.5 years in our calendar is only to reconcile it with the solar year based calendar. For that matter, the very term Yuga initially meant the time-span when the Solar and lunar years coincided reasonably. You can find this as early as in Yajurveda when Yajnavalkya equates 63 lunar months to 60 solar months and proceeds to draw his 95 year time frame.

And your observation that Hipparchus suggests 27000 years as the great year only reinforces my suspicion because this is exactly the figure that you find in many Indian books for the shift of the seasons. It is generally mentioned in Indian literature that the seasons shift by one Nakshatra every 1000 years and there is a complete circle once every 27000 years. Any Nakshatra based calculation is always lunar based.

I think it is you guys who have to come out of this habit of seeing some mysterious astronomy in everything ancient and religious. There could be a grain of truth in what you say about the astronomical meanings of Revelation, Noah's Ark and the fish and bread stories but then again it is also equally possible that they are mere stories to reinforce belief in a particular god. Anyway, I am no expert to comment on what the writers of the Bible had in their minds but I can say with reasonable assurance that Indian literature generally deal with religious and rational aspects in a fairly distinguishable manner. And I believe, Greek intellectuals from 500 BCE onwards had enough correspondence with and exposure to Indian wisdom and knowledge and it would be no surprise if they did not use some of the terms in the same manner as used by Indians.

Robert Tulip wrote:
balu wrote:
the lunar year which is what the Hindus have always considered in their day to day usage.

Balu, I think you are starting from a mystical religious perspective which is not helpful in analysing Hipparchus. I do not believe your claim that Hindus consider twelve lunar months as a year. A year is basically solar, governed by the seasons. The vague year, whether 354, 360 or 365 days, is merely calendrical, not real.

We should assume that for Hipparchus a year is a solar year, so the 150 years movement of Spica by two degrees he described refers to solar years. This is important in indicating Hipparchus had a more accurate understanding of precession than is attributed to him by Ptolemy, who asserted that Hipparchus said the Great Year was 36,000 years in length. Hipparchus' observation of 75 years per degree suggests a reasonably accurate Great Year of 27,000 years duration. Modern science says the Great Year is 25,765 years long. The Platonic year convention of 25920 years derives from sacred geometry, and I have not heard what its oldest proven example is.

Trying to say Hipparchus had an even more accurate understanding of precession as 71.6 years in lunar terms introduces a speculative dimension for which there is no basis. Hipparchus apparently based his estimate of precession on observation of the moon, empirically calculating the gap between where Babylonian records located the moon at equinox eclipses and where he saw it himself.

It may be that Vedic sages had a more accurate knowledge in antedeluvian times, but that is a speculative question that we lack the evidence to resolve.

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Ekavarnam yatha dugdham binnavarnasu dhenushu | tataiva dharmavaichitryam tatvam ekam param smritam ||
Just as milk is of only one colour though obtained from cows of different colours so also the peculiarities of different religious thoughts lead to the same one ultimate truth - Mahabharatha


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:45 am 
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Balu, I'm sorry to be curt with you, as I enjoy reading the information you provide. However, there is a fairly simple misunderstanding in your comments. You said "75 lunar years would be equal to 71.428571... solar years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cale ... r_calendar states "A lunisolar calendar is always a calendar based on the moon's celestial motion, which in a way keeps itself close to a solar calendar based on the sun's (apparent) celestial motion. That is, the lunisolar calendar's new year is to kept always close (within certain limits) to a solar calendar's new year."

The Hindu calendar is lunisolar - not lunar. Twelve lunar months make 354 days. As you state, every few years an extra month is added to bring the lunar and solar calendars back in alignment. So your suggestion of "75 lunar years" is a concept with no basis in the Hindu calendar.

balu wrote:
in Hindu calendar an year of 12 lunar months is very much in practice even to this date. This method is extremely useful in day to day life irrespective of anybody's beliefs. The additional lunar month once in 2.5 years in our calendar is only to reconcile it with the solar year based calendar.


Yes, and this extra month means any concept of 75 lunar years is meaningless, because over that period only solar years apply, based on the seasons.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:44 am 
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Who is talking about calendars here? In order to understand the term 'year' in the Yuga calculations, you have to read the original Vedic literature and not the usual second hand translated stuff by some sundry European scholar. A 15 day period is called a Paksha. Two Pakshas of waning and Waxing phases of the moon called the Krishna and Shukla respectively constitute one month. 12 such months constitute an year and so on till you arrive at the 4.32 million year Yuga and the 4.32 billion year day of Brahma. The 'year' thus is always a period of 12 lunar months for Great year calculations.

But suit yourself. Either you don't understand or you don't want to understand. In any case I have no time either for intellectual blah blah with someone who wants to be curt.


Robert Tulip wrote:
Balu, I'm sorry to be curt with you, as I enjoy reading the information you provide. However, there is a fairly simple misunderstanding in your comments. You said "75 lunar years would be equal to 71.428571... solar years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cale ... r_calendar states "A lunisolar calendar is always a calendar based on the moon's celestial motion, which in a way keeps itself close to a solar calendar based on the sun's (apparent) celestial motion. That is, the lunisolar calendar's new year is to kept always close (within certain limits) to a solar calendar's new year."

The Hindu calendar is lunisolar - not lunar. Twelve lunar months make 354 days. As you state, every few years an extra month is added to bring the lunar and solar calendars back in alignment. So your suggestion of "75 lunar years" is a concept with no basis in the Hindu calendar.

balu wrote:
in Hindu calendar an year of 12 lunar months is very much in practice even to this date. This method is extremely useful in day to day life irrespective of anybody's beliefs. The additional lunar month once in 2.5 years in our calendar is only to reconcile it with the solar year based calendar.


Yes, and this extra month means any concept of 75 lunar years is meaningless, because over that period only solar years apply, based on the seasons.

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Janani Janmabhoomishcha Swargadapi Gareeyasi - Being near to your mother in your motherland is better than being in paradise

Ekavarnam yatha dugdham binnavarnasu dhenushu | tataiva dharmavaichitryam tatvam ekam param smritam ||
Just as milk is of only one colour though obtained from cows of different colours so also the peculiarities of different religious thoughts lead to the same one ultimate truth - Mahabharatha


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